Dr. Matt Lyon (16:26):

I mean it’s so obvious to me having worked with thousands of patients and coached doctors who’ve also worked with thousands of patients, that the most important job I had was my being, who am I being? And if my focus is on love and support and empathy and connection dramatically different outcomes than if I felt rushed, if I felt frustrated, if I didn’t feel certain in my protocols, which is why I think it’s so important for students to get an system they love and trust.

Dr. Matt Lyon (18:13):

you learn that system, intuition is actually very neuroscientific, which is to say your nervous system begins to pick up subtlety and sensitivity that previously may not have been aware of because different parts of your brain are more active.


Dr. Matt Lyon (21:02):

And you know, in a group environment, we know this again from, from the studies of emergent biological systems that groups begin to train in train to each other. That these literally these morphic fields of energy and intelligence between us can create a higher order of knowledge that people then have access to. And how do we see that works? Is you just, you learn faster.

Dr. Matt Lyon (22:13):

the other thing that you touched on, which is so critical, it’s so important to remember is that it’s not the disease, it’s, it’s, I never wanted to treat the disease or the pain or the disc issue where the shoulder, the irritable bowel syndrome, I wanted to know who that person was.

About Dr. Manon Bolliger, ND:

Dr. Manon is a Naturopathic Doctor, the Founder of Bowen College, an International Speaker with an upcoming TEDx talk in May 2020, and the author of the Amazon best-selling book “What Patient’s Don’t Say if Doctors Don’t Ask.” Watch for her next book, due out in 2020.


Dr. Manon, ND – Facebook Instagram  LinkedIn  |  YouTube  |  Twitter

About The Healers Café:

Dr. Manon’s show is the #1 show for medical practitioners and holistic healers to have heart to heart conversations about their day to day lives.

Follow us on social media! https://www.facebook.com/thehealerscafe



About Dr. Matt

Dr. Matt is a chiropractor and acupuncture practitioner who owned and operated one of the largest chiropractic clinics of its kind in the world. His clinic had a 6-9 month waiting list where clients flew from around the world to participate in a wholly unique MindBody paradigm and practice of healing and wellness. He specialized in deeply energetic approach to alignment and balance called Network Spinal Analysis (as featured on the GoopLab special, episode 5 found on Netflix). He was also a master practitioner and facilitator of Somato Respiratory Integration – a somatic breath and energy practice to up level the human nervous and energy system.

Dr. Matt Lyon has been teaching meditation to groups for 27 years. Dr. Matt began his deep study of meditation in 1992 with an initiation in traditional Japanese Zen meditation with a renowned Zen Master. After that, he studied with a monk and Christian meditation master in the tradition of Centering prayer. He has also been formally initiated and trained in Tibetan Buddhism, Mindfulness meditation, Transcendental Meditation, and Loving-Kindness meditation.

Dr. Matt also lived and trained at the US Olympic Training center as an athlete where he was trained in leading edge biofeedback, meditation, and visualization.

Dr. Matt has worked with and taught in over 20 corporations as a wellness and mindfulness consultant. At Duke Energy, the largest power utility in the United States, he rolled out a watershed 6 month meditation program for employees.

Dr. Matt also leads his own private retreats for small groups in the USA, Latin America, and the Caribbean

He and his wife sold their clinic and relocated to Longmont, CO as they begin their next service adventure to the Colorado community. They are currently opening a healing center here in Longmont, CO.

Dr. Matt is an intuitive Energy strategist to some of the most influential thought leaders of our time and has worked directly with a number of prominent politicians, authors, influencers  and Hollywood actors.

Core purpose / passion : My purpose is very simple and laser focused – I am here on this planet to empower others to awaken and heal themselves.

Freebie : Meditation Download at https://www.diamondheartdojo.com

Follow Dr Matt.  Facebook |  Instagram  |   YouTube  |


Dr. Manon (00:01):

So hello and welcome to the healers cafe. And today I have a really special guest and his name is Matt Lyon, and he’s a chiropractor with network spinal analysis. He’s also a, you have a training in Chinese ,or masters in Chinese medicine, correct? Yes. And your field of focus and energy is energy. Yeah. So I’m sure that’s the very short version. So tell us a little bit about you and then we’ll get going. Well, it’s great to be here.

Dr. Matt Lyon (00:38):

I’m just really grateful. It’s great to see you again. I love the synchronicity of life that we met at in Lambertville New Jersey at a training where we’re both doing to Uplevel our, our, our, our teaching and influence capacity. So, yeah, I’ve been a chiropractor for almost 20 years. I knew I wanted to be a chiropractor when I was 11, and I just had an innate sense that there was an energy in me and all, all around me. So as a child I was very aware that there was some creative force and not to sound woo woo, but I, I literally could see a energy. I felt it. And and I thought, Oh my God, there’s gotta be some thing to this. And I remember I met this chiropractor in my hometown and he was so cool. I thought, wait.

Dr. Matt Lyon (01:35):

And then he gave me this whole spiel about how there’s an intelligence that runs through your body and, and if it’s blocked, you’re not well lit, but it’s unlocked. You’re healthy. And I was like, there’s something that feels true about that, you know, I don’t know if that, you know, I particularly agree with that exact model these days, but it was something really true about it. And I thought that’s what I wanted to do. And I loved helping people and I just had a kind of empathic, sensitive spirit. So it was my thing. And I went through college with the intent to be a chiropractor and got to chiropractic college and fell in love with acupuncture and Chinese medicine as well. And my first foray into the world of fascia was craniosacral work from John upledger and then some of the more subtle components with a Hugh Milne and Franklin Sills.

Dr. Matt Lyon (02:24):

And then was really interested in Meyers anatomy trains and and acupuncture is a fashionable thing. And then I found network, which was a combination of learning how the fields of energy in and around the body really influenced physiology and that we could support that and support its evolution and connection through various techniques. So that really became my work. And then my practice, which was is actually a really large practice that shocked me and my wife. Cause we were, you know, started out with absolutely, you know, two pennies to rub together. And we built a clinic that was really a kind of a, one of a kind in the Southeast of the United States. And I love the Southeast. It’s a bit of my heritage at the time we opened up this clinic though this, the South was not open to energy medicine.

Dr. Matt Lyon (03:19):

Yeah. So we came in and actually was about 2009. And so we just, we just had a message for people that you’re more than you think you are and we don’t have energy, we are energy and your body is a conduit of that and let us teach you how to heal yourself and how to wake up. I’m a real simple things. And then we use network and then we use breathing exercises. And then we did lots of workshops and I also taught meditation. But the idea was is that our purpose was really clear that we want to do empower people to heal and wake up and not us doing it. Because you know, as John UpLedger said, you know the inner physician that the physician is inside, it’s this incredible intelligence, this organizing intelligence that lives in us and moves in us and it’s in that intelligence that we have our being.

Dr. Matt Lyon (04:08):

And it just so happens that fascia and the nervous system and the energy system are all sort of one contiguous dance. And teaching people to become more aware of it and have agency with, they have a relationship with their true self was profoundly healing. So at one point we had like a nine month waiting list to come into our clinic and I would always scratch my head and I was like, Oh my God, how, how is this? But what I realized was is that people were getting such good results because they were learning to be in relationship with this energy, with this intelligence. And for sure, you know, when fascia gets blocked, when the Meninges get tort and torques and creates resonance patterns of disconnection to the whole body, I mean that can totally tweak someone’s perspective of life, their perception of themselves, their immune system, pain pathways on and on and on. So I realized that this thing we were dealing with was much bigger than health. There was much bigger than disease. It was just life itself is theirs because we can’t experience life without this incredible sensitive sensory apparatus. So that’s what I became really passionate about and got more and more interested in energy and intelligence and energetic fields and morphic fields and cell signaling through the microtubules and light and all those things that we got really excited about talking about in Lambertville. So I’ll pause there and just see

Dr. Manon (05:37):

If I have a question, I feel like you’re a twin brother or something. I know it’s uncanning like the the experience. But I love when you said it’s like you, you, I don’t remember your words. That’s the problem. I just remember the feeling I got feeling centric more than anything else. But it’s like we have to have sensitive apparatuses to appreciate life

Dr. Manon (06:07):

It in its whole, right. It’s so it’s very interesting cause it, it’s very much aligned with you know, now diagnosis, you know, if we don’t like cool. That’s a story. And you know, and this is a story and this is a story and everything else, but your, the way you live your life is, is the bigger story and how do you, how do you connect to that? So anyway, it’s very, it’s very it’s great to hear this like, okay, I’m gonna I’m before we go to the part that I am so excited to share, you did touch upon how you started as an, and again, I share the same definition as healer. We don’t self identify that way cause the healer is really the person within. I get that totally right. But there’s a little piece of us that feels called and, and so for you, what did it start with this this chiropractor? Did it start by this notion or did you have some earlier experience or what made you connect to this,

Dr. Matt Lyon (07:13):

The path and then you chose the path? Oh, it’s such a great question. There were a couple live experiences I had as a child that I would say were uni unity or unification experiences. So there’s, I th it, it, you know, to me there’s this flow of four stages of, you know, we all have awareness, but most people aren’t aware that they’re aware. So their thoughts are just kind of all over the place or it’s on Corona virus or Donald Trump or you know, whatever. I’m, I’m in the United States or these things are hot topics here.

Dr. Matt Lyon (07:52):

Right? So, so most people were just kind of, you know, we have 80,000 thoughts per day according to the research from Martin Seligman and you know, 80% of those for the average person are negative. So most people, and, and, and you know, me too sometimes, right? Most people are in this sort of trance, a bit of a sleepwalking and we just sort of believe our thoughts and you know, our thoughts sort of then construct our reality that we then describe meaning and reality too. So there was a couple moments as a kid where all that just sort of unzipped and unpacked and I felt experienced, saw the world and people as energy, as light almost as if, you know, if you were to take a picture and zoom in on it and it becomes pixelated, you begin to see the space between things to experience the space between you and I am and you’re in Vancouver.

Dr. Matt Lyon (08:44):

I’m in the Rocky mountains and yet I can become aware of the space between us as a living field of intelligence. And that’s what I experienced. And I didn’t know at the time. But there was, there was an intuitive capacity. I mean everybody’s intuitive and anybody can cultivate those gifts. Like you, I think, you know, some people are, you know, we have a friend who’s a professional Olympic swimmer, like she’s just inclined to swim. Like I can swim, you can swim, but she can go to the Olympics. You know, some people have maybe more of an endowment on the intuitive gifts. And I think maybe you and I are similar in that way. So that was there. So I had a, a primordial intuitive sense of a greater meaning of life than what I saw. I thought there’s more, there’s something behind this veil of reality and it’s energy.

Dr. Matt Lyon (09:34):

It’s living, it’s an intelligence. I was very interested in spirituality of different varieties, yoga traditions, Buddhist traditions. From a really early age, I became quite obsessed with studying the brain and the nervous system. My dad was a neuroscientist and he had Netter ‘s atlases and I remember just pouring through them and I would get really excited about the nervous system part. So there was, there was an innate knowing there was a draw and a call. And so yes, there, there was a call in while while the healer is within one gift that healers have is, is because of the energy that they can tune into and bring awareness to. They can awaken that potential in other people. You know sometimes, you know, while I can turn, anybody can turn on the light in their room. If someone hands them a candle, they’ll actually see that there’s a light switch. But here, you know, before that they might not have been aware of the possibility.

Dr. Manon (10:34):

Yeah. And actually I have another theory for that. It’s, it’s that it’s you know, in homeopathy it’s like cures like, right. So it’s the law of similarity. If you don’t have something within you that the other one can see it, it isn’t seen. Right. It has. Totally. Yeah. And I think I mean you speak to that, but I was just, it reminded me of that.

Dr. Matt Lyon (10:58):

Oh God, it’s brilliant. And not to go off on a non-sequitur here, but it really relates, you know, that the double slit experiment in quantum physics, we don’t need to get into the complexity, the experiment, but it clearly showed us that as an observer, the way I observe the observed thing changes that thing. So is me as healer is if I observe wellness and wholeness and fluidity and suppleness in a person, quantum physics would tell me if I change the way I look at something, the thing that I’m looking at is changing. And so that by my observation of someone in wholeness in vivid alive , I actually awakened that potential in them. You know, as if I put my hands on someone and I would always get this sense of quickly becoming like a fiber optic cable, moving through bodies really quickly. And I was given the moniker medical intuitive, medical intuitive by a very famous medical intuitive and I was never comfortable with that term.

Dr. Matt Lyon (12:04):

For a couple of reasons. One, because I didn’t want to be a medical intuitive, I didn’t want to get into the pressure of having to diagnose disease. But something about my awareness would be able to go into people’s bodies and travel through connective tissues, find where the blocks were and it would notice this again and again and again. You know, one of my mentors, you would always say Matt, where it is is where it ain’t where it is, where it ain’t he was a North Carolinian chiropractor. Meaning I would never even put my hands on the area of the person that hurt, but simply by tuning into where these blocks were and bringing wholeness to it, whether that was through touch or a procedure I didn’t do Bowen work, but similar stuff , and then people would have these incredible experiences of healing pain as you know, having emotional releases of stuff that had been holding them back for years, changing their whole focus, their whole meaning of whole language patterns, completely changing the range of emotions they could feel all because of this ability to be present, to be in this law of similarity and thus awakening some dormant potential within, wakening this giant within.

Dr. Matt Lyon (13:07):


Dr. Manon (13:09):

Brilliant where it’s, I’m saying I think this is going to be the longest point. No, we, we’ll keep it to 40 minutes. We just might have to continue part two later, but, okay. What I was gonna say is you know, so some of the people watching the, the podcast may not be completely up to date with or completely in tune with what you’re, you’re talking about, especially when you said this split testing. If you’re able to explain a bit more I think it’d be fascinating so that it’s not like just brushed over. I would love you to go, can you go into that a little bit more so that people could relate to that may not know, holistic or doctors who are now looking for complimentary health. They’re starting to get disenchanted by the limitations of what they’ve, they’ve learned. And they still went into it with the same heart that we all do when we want to help people. You know, and it’s like, I really want to you know, to these concepts that some people go, Oh my gosh, this, it’s not scientific. I am trying to bring as much science to it so that anyone, and you’re so well spoken. If you have something to share on that you can really clear, I would really love that.

Dr. Matt Lyon (14:33):

Totally. So I’ll put you know, let’s just make things a little, I don’t want to say concrete, but we can crystallize a lot of these, I don’t want to call them concepts. We can crystallize these realities into some working models so we can create some contextual models related to, I think there’s two things that would be important to talk about. And the first is that just who we are in a clinical encounter can change the clinical encounter. We know that through the placebo research, we know that through nocebo research, we also know that through various disciplines within quantum physics that studied how the scientific observers would look for the electron is where the electron would show up or in this double slit experience where the observer directed their attention. Because wherever attention goes is where energy flows. That’s where there would be these photons that would make a Mark.

Dr. Matt Lyon (15:32):

So meaning my awareness, my intention, my presence, my being has an effect. We could even say then that typically, you know, Newtonian physics says there’s a law of cause and effect. Newtonian physics are amazing. You know, if you want to fly on an airplane from Vancouver to Denver, Colorado and come visit me, you definitely want an airplane that was built on the principles of Newtonian physics. But in quantum physics, it includes all of Newtonian physics, but it says it’s not necessarily a law of cause and effect. It says that our intention, our awareness or consciousness can effect a cause. And there’s very good data to support this. Now we make some suppositions and extrapolations in that, which may be seem woo to some, but the basics of it are, if I change the way I look at something, that thing that I look at changes.

Dr. Matt Lyon (16:26):

I mean it’s so obvious to me having worked with thousands of patients and coached doctors who’ve also worked with thousands of patients, that the most important job I had was my being, who am I being? And if my focus is on love and support and empathy and connection dramatically different outcomes than if I felt rushed, if I felt frustrated, if I didn’t feel certain in my protocols, which is why I think it’s so important for students to get an system they love and trust. And they do like Bowen and it’s really learn it to get certain in that certainty fills them and then they’ve seen the outcomes and then they go into something. I can produce a result again and again, and then build their certainty. And that certainty creates more energy and then greater unconscious competency, which is when intuition can really drop in.

Dr. Matt Lyon (17:13):

But that’s why you gotta pay your dues and do the hard work and learn the techniques. So I wanted to say that about, you know, who we’re being really matters in the encounter and there’s a ton of scientific data to support that. Another thing I wanted to talk about the, did you, did you want to say anything about that? No, I was no, I totally agree with that. But I was thinking back to the first thing, like the yellow car that you want to buy. Suddenly there’s lots of yellow cards also draw your attention. You also start seeing things that are always there, but now you totally 10% of, well that’s, that’s right. Yeah. Sorry, got excited you, you brought up such a good point, which is, you know, in neuroscience we could, you know this, we call it the reticulator active, reticular activating system or RAS is that part of our brain that once we become aware of something or we have a new experience, now we begin to look for it everywhere, right? So the yellow dress or the Volkswagen beetle or the at, where is that fascia really disconnected where first you might be going like, Oh my God, I don’t even know where to start. Like, let me just go back to what I know. But when you learn that system, intuition is actually very neuroscientific, which is to say your nervous system begins to pick up subtlety and sensitivity that previously may not have been aware of because different parts of your brain are more active.

Dr. Manon (18:36):

Yeah. And I, I love how you tie in confidence, you know, because I, as I’m training practitioners, they say, Oh, well you can do it because you’ve got magic hands or you’ve got confidence. It’s like, no, no, it, it’s, it’s a, it’s a learning process. You build the confidence that creates your reality, their reality. They see the reality. It, it, it also engages them fully. And we’re also paying attention to the context of their situation, the context of their pain, for example. Right. So one of the things that I find really helps is if we’re looking much more multi-dimensionally, we’re actually listening to their experience in life, everything about their life, not just the pain they came to ideally solve. Right. And that’s where we start to understand the way pain works, you know, and how pain can be so different for so many different people and the way it’s triggered for different people. And, and so anyway, it just, it’s just it, it really comes up. It’s a combination of being there. He’s being completely present and listening so that you can respond with all the layers that are in, in play. Cause there’s not, you know, it’s not just a body on a table and you’re not just a practitioner with hands.

Dr. Matt Lyon (20:07):

Exactly. You know, you bring it, there’s so much richness into what you just said. I want to respond to that and push pause, what I was going to talk about, about fascia, energy flow, let’s get to that later. But we’re going to get to that. Yeah. Well this is so critical because, you know, and I want to speak to anybody who’s watching this who maybe isn’t in transition or wants more another career. It feels like their calling hasn’t been fulfilled or they feel frustrated. You know, you’re so not alone. One thing that really struck me when you were talking was the power of community. So when you get into a community like Dr. Manon’s community, you’re learning from a Master, but she became a, because she did the work, you know, any of us that attain a certain level of mastery in our lives, we’ve just, we’ve put in a lot of time to that.

Dr. Matt Lyon (20:56):

We put a lot of intention and focus and anybody can do that. When you get into a community though with great teachers and inspiring people and you have a greater meaning for what we’re doing and we have really elevated emotions about it, we have a clear focus of where we’re going. You can take quantum leaps, quantum leaps in where you think you can be. It’s amazing. And you know, in a group environment, we know this again from, from the studies of emergent biological systems that groups begin to train in train to each other. That these literally these morphic fields of energy and intelligence between us can create a higher order of knowledge that people then have access to. And how do we see that works? Is you just, you learn faster. You, why spend decades doing it by yourself when you can learn it in months or years.

Dr. Matt Lyon (21:46):

I mean, you know, there’s a subtlety of mastery that I’m still working with, you know, getting better and better hopefully for the rest of my life. But that, that the power of drawing into an energy rich community is life changing. And you know, I think the one thing that holds us all back from doing things that we feel really strongly drawn to is just fear and the best pill. Like you that fears that, okay, yep. I’m totally scared. I’m totally vulnerable. I feel like I’m not going to get this right. And then, you know, you just do it anyway and you find a community and a teacher that you trust. So I just really wanted to put in that plug. Just in general, you know, the other thing that you touched on, which is so critical, it’s so important to remember is that it’s not the disease, it’s, it’s, I never wanted to treat the disease or the pain or the disc issue where the shoulder, the irritable bowel syndrome, I wanted to know who that person was.

Dr. Matt Lyon (22:37):

And we know from the research that the meaning and life experience that a person has around their illness or their challenge or their whole life, it’s one of the major determinants of whether or not they heal. And so there was just a couple of questions that I would always ask people when they would come in and they’d be surprised. Cause typically, you know, medicine and especially chiropractors are guilty of this. It’s like, Oh, where does it hurt? All right, show me. Does it hurt when I do this? Let me do this orthopedic test. Let me do this neuro neurological desert and here’s what your x-ray say. Those have a place.

Dr. Matt Lyon (23:08):

And the question I would ask is, Hey, so you know, I’m so glad to see you, you know, tell me, tell me your story. What’s going on? And you know, a simple question like how’s that affecting you? Like how’s that affecting your life? Oh, lo, Oh my God. You know, like I can’t pick up my kids. Like I don’t feel like I can do my job and it’s okay. What does that bring up for you? I feel like failure. I feel like a bad parent. I’m scared, I’m gonna lose my money. Oh wow. That’s, that’s hard. That’s, that’s gotta really scary. Yeah, it is. Okay. So I get it. Like work with me here. Let’s just play for a minute. And so what I would use as I would act, you know, I would wait till I had real connection and rapport, but even just to ask a loving question of like, let’s just think for a minute, six months, a year from now, you’re free.

Dr. Matt Lyon (24:06):

You feel great. Tell me about your life. And so what I would begin to do is plant seeds in them to be able to actually visualize and dream and see their life with heightened emotion. To see that it was a possibility. And I can’t tell you how many people would come in for the second visit before I’d even really done much. It’d be like, I don’t know what you did, but I feel so much better. I said, you know what? I didn’t do anything. This is you. This is you beginning to wake up. This is your brain literally changing and releases tons of healing hormones. And yes, here’s like what we should do to really open your body. And here’s what my tests say and you know, these are my findings. But just that ability to connect to the meaning in a person’s life experience create such a bond between patient and doctor or client and facilitator, whatever nomenclature we want to use and that, that bond and that healing, awakened confidence within that person.

Dr. Matt Lyon (25:02):

They feel seen, they feel loved. And that is a healing elixir. And I’ll tell you, man, the biggest nutritional deficiency we have in medicine is love and compassion. I mean, you know, like, I mean, I was really into functional medicine for awhile. Like we could do tests and find 10 things wrong with anybody. I run an MRI on somebody today, I’m going to find something wrong with everybody. You know what? I really came to find out that 80% of the time simple practices like Bowen, like network, 80% of the time, I think 20% of people needed a little more tweaking or it just wasn’t the right fit. But 80% of the time just restoring the natural healing flow of a body’s fascia, their alignment, their proper functioning of their nervous system, the breath of the ability, this feel and become aware of their body.

Dr. Matt Lyon (25:51):

This was incredibly healing. And then you put love and awareness into that, in the certainty and the confidence. I remember one time I had this great mentor and he asked me, he said, what do you think makes the best chiropractor? He’d studied chiropractors for year, years. And I said, well, technical skill. He said, no. I said, communication skills. He said, you’d think so, but no. And I said, well, what doesn’t make the most, you know, most potent, powerful healer? He said, it’s certainty. It’s their certainty. Because that certainty, you know, we have mirror neurons in our brains and so when they pick up on that certainty and they feel your love behind it, it elicits a possibility within them. And that’s really powerful. I mean, look at all the studies on the placebo effect. Just a simple, strong volition and emotional belief that I’m going to take something that’s going to heal me. Even though it’s an innocuous substance, begins to awaken. The very

Dr. Manon (26:44):

Healing possibility in a person is proof of this. That’s why I think the placebo effect is super cool. The challenge with the placebo effect is scientifically it doesn’t last, but if a person really is able to alter their inner experience and Uplevel their personality, we know their personal reality is going to have a change as well. And that’s why clinical mastery, even just a little bit at a time, if you’re one step ahead of your patient, energetically, technically you’re in an amazing place. You don’t need to be a master yet. We just need to start where we are and transmit that love and that certainty and that great compassion. Yeah, it’s funny cause I, I decided, I, I didn’t like the way, you know, I know it’s called placebo, but I thought I’m going to call it the positivo effect™ because has, you know, a limitation because it’s true.

Dr. Manon (27:38):

If you don’t engage it, it will. And it’s also a way reliably that you can see whether if you’re doing something , whether it’s going to work or not, right. So it has, it’s serves a great purpose and often you know, complementary medicine and complementary therapies or, Oh, it’s just the placebo effect. And the thing is, it’s not just that, it’s, it’s all of what you spoke about and that enrolling the patient or the client into their own health, which we never have time to do, they can’t enroll themselves because nobody’s asking them to look at bigger when they’ve got pain or they’ve got issues. Everyone keeps them in a box. And that’s the, the foundation of, you know, diagnosis and, and then the limited prognosis. Right. Because it’s in a, in a, you know, it’s either the Merck or DMS5 five now more categories, you know.

Dr. Manon (28:39):

So it really doesn’t, or scans. Right. And I was just, you know, doing a bit of research recently, I was like, Oh my goodness. You know, and it made me think of one of the patients I had who had a scan confirm that he had degenerative disc disease. And it’s like, that is what nailed the coffin, right? When I looked at, you know, this huge study, it’s like, Oh my goodness, in the 90s I did 90% people with the same level of degeneration that don’t, don’t experience pain. They also don’t have the story that it can create. So some of the time what we’re doing, at least, I’m sure this is the same with you, is we’re also busting myths busting, you know, kind of going like, okay, here’s the world of possibility and then let’s, you know, let’s open the coffin. The limited visibility. Yeah. Well, you bring up a really good point and I think a lot your students and yourself,

Dr. Matt Lyon (29:42):

And when I was in clinical practice, you know, we saw a lot of back pain, right? So Peter O’Sullivan, who’s a great physiotherapist from Australia, one of his colleagues actually published a really good study in British medical journal open that said most chronic back pain was Iatrogenic ,was doctor-caused for this very reason because the studies are really clear that let’s say your patient, you know, they get this scan and now they see all these scary things. It changes their meaning, their focus and their language around their body. And so instead of seeing them, their spines has amazing structures that are strong and robust and love to move and, and, and lift. You know, now we’re scared. And so fear drives pain. And that’s not a woo statement. There are about 19 centers of the brain that we can accurately state are associated with pain.

Dr. Matt Lyon (30:35):

It doesn’t mean that pain only comes from the brain, but the brain is where pain is perceived. And so if, if the brain no longer perceive the pain, it’s not there. So if there’s 19 centers of pain, 18 centers of pain in the brain, they, most of them cross link often with fear circuits or anxiety circuits set another way. Fear, anxiety, not trusting our bodies, not having an empowering meaning, feeling run through the system, seeing this thing on the wall and going, Oh my God, my spine is totally screwed up and I have to get a needle stuck in my back to get cortisone there. Or I need to go see the surgeon X. Oh my God, I’m scared. I’m scared. I’m scared. And so what happens is, is we’ve totally messed up the real meaning of medicine, which is first do no harm. I mean, if the research says don’t scan everybody just because you can make a buck off it, don’t scan everybody, right?

Dr. Matt Lyon (31:28):

Yeah. Like just, you can make a buck. Don’t do it. It actually harms people. But I think the deeper message here is, you know, whatever people’s background is, and I know I met a surgeon who did Bowen techniques. So there’s chiropractors and probably physiotherapists and massage therapists, and you have this whole spectrum of people, no matter where we’re at on that spectrum, that ability to detangle those beliefs and myths and give people a more empowering meaning. It’s amazing because if we think about what really drives change, a, you know, listen, I’m an energy person, but there are invisible forces around us all the time. My computer is emitting electromagnetic fields. The electrical wires out there have fields around them. Gravity’s invisible Field love is an invisible influence. Hate is an invisible influence. I mean, the stock market has tumbled because of the invisible effect of fear of the coronavirus.

Dr. Matt Lyon (32:23):

And so emotion is a function of the meaning we give things. So if a person says, Oh my God, I have agency over my body, I have this amazing connective tissue network, which is like moving electrical impulses and interfacing with every cell in my body. And here I’ve got this great guide to take me on this journey. I can do this. That’s really powerful. And of course you have your clinical skills and your, your technical expertise, but changing the meaning changes the emotions. And when we get patients to change their emotions, they can absolutely change their pain and change their whole experience. You know, just thinking of your story of the guy with the knee pain. I mean it’s one simple story, but it like, we are so powerful and I really want practitioners or students to get this too, is that you’re not in this podcast or you’re not in this school with Manon or thinking about the school by accident.

Dr. Matt Lyon (33:18):

You know, there’s a purpose to everything and that, that sense of a vision of something greater than who we are calls in amazing energy and power and purpose and potential. So I love this study of MRIs and I love what it really deeply means to us. And 90% of people over the age of 35 have disc degeneration. And usually people aren’t told that. Yeah, no, that’s not a very profitable, it’s trying to say that out loud to search that. I mean that’s really the, that’s the research is about 90% of people over the age of 25 actually, I’ve just, your generation, I think it was 75% of people, 25 years old had significant L five S one disc degeneration. So we don’t need to, I think we’ve made, I think I’ve made my point there, but so powerful what we can do to help people turn their lives around and then to turn practitioner’s lives around. You need to see the light come back in their eyes and they’re having these experiences and it’s amazing, right?

Dr. Manon (34:12):

No, no, this is like, it’s some, I get very excited. I mean I always get excited with my patients and you know, even though it’s been 30 years I’ve been doing this, I still hug them cause I still believe that the body is so incredible. It’s like, it, it just shocks me all the time. And you know, like as a practitioner, how amazing is that? And that’s, you know, what I want from the students now cause I’ve closed my practice, you know, and it’s like, I, it’s so it’s such a gift to be in that, in that gifting space, you know? And, and I agree. There is no coincidence, you know, that, I mean, there’s no coincidence that we met either. And I wanted to just jump on that point where you talked about the fascia because I was going to say that, you know, once we’ve done the misconceptions, we’ve gotten rid of that we’ve, you know, kind of gotten back to possibility, the very nature of fashion, the, the, you know, matrix like component, the biological internet of communication, whatever, whichever way you want to look at it. It’s like it’s such a in enrapturing freeing way, which a lot of people because of fear and because of their diagnosis that they believe they don’t move. They don’t bend, they don’t use their body. And we need motion. We’re made of motion. Right. So but I, I wanted you to, because we’re probably wrapping up, I want you to explain the fascia in the way that, I mean, I was like, we talked about, I was in shivers. I was so excited for. So I’ll keep it simple

Dr. Matt Lyon (35:55):

And we’ll infuse it with just my experience and hope, my wisdom around it. Here’s an Axiom and, and I think we can all agree on this. In fact, I can prove it that the body is self healing, self regulating and self organizing. If I take a scalpel and I cut my arm, I wouldn’t recommend anybody do that. But you know I put a band aid on it and maybe it’s put some essential oils around it and the next day it’s going to begin to heal. You know when you and I were in school and we were dissecting cadavers, you know I could slice the cadaver and it’s not going to heal. It doesn’t have that life. So there’s something about life that’s self healing, self organize and self-regulating. That’s Axiom number one. Axiom number two, according to Grey’s anatomy is that the nervous system, I’m going to.

Dr. Matt Lyon (36:45):

Explain what I mean by that in a moment. But the nervous system is the master controller of the body. So therefore if there is any block or dysfunction within the nervous system, our ability to self heal and self-regulate, it’s going to be affected. Now, the nervous system is not just the brain and the spinal cord and the peripheral nerve roots, that’s a part of it. Neurotransmitters are a part of it. Neuropeptides are a part of it. Fascia is absolutely a part of it. Fascia is the most, you think your bones hold your body up. It’s not your bones and hold your body up. If we didn’t have fascia, we would be like a sack, a garbage bag of organs and muscles. Not only just the fascia provide support, it’s contiguous and interdigitated down to the very sensitive structures of the spinal cord and the brain itself.

Dr. Matt Lyon (37:43):

It is an extension of the nervous system, so we can then define the nervous system as the communication networks of the body. There is no system more vast than the system of fascia and it carries electrical charge. The fascia is not only contiguous and interdigitated with the nervous system and the Meninges and the pia matter and the dura matter, all of which is sort of the protective sack around the brain and every emotion, every thought, every feeling, every life experience we have has a certain posture and tone intention in the Fascial network. So not only does it affect the nervous system, it goes into each cell like into the microtubules. Now, scientifically we, I didn’t think this and I wasn’t one of the people who thought this, I just, cause I wasn’t one of the researchers, but the microtubules, that’s like the scaffolding, you know, that’s like the, the sort of internal structure system of a cell.

Dr. Matt Lyon (38:39):

So we thought it was sort of a passive thing. Microtubials actually carry vibration that’s contiguous with the fashion. It’s a massive communication network. All of which signals what we call biophoton. And if you want to look up bio photons cause you’re like, Whoa, this dude super crazy. I’m not bio photons are light particles, photons that your body emits. And that scientists, especially Fritz Popp, Albert or Albert Popp Fritz has studied and said that he believes in as I think there’s 36 conclusive studies that talk about light being a major portion of signaling between cells that up-regulate or down-regulate which genes are expressed. So think about this. We can’t have any experience in this world. Love, passion, excitement learning, Bowen technique, putting your hands on a person, healing activating natural killer cells, turning on stomach enzymes, cytochrome P4 50 in your liver without this network.

Dr. Matt Lyon (39:40):

But what’s so cool about this fashion network is not only is it within us, each human living organism has a field of energy around the body, all of which can be measured. Russians have done this, the HeartMath Institute has done this. And that Fascial system is, is absorbing and transducing those energy fields. Just like an antenna used to do on a TV. I don’t know if anybody has TVs with antennas. I remember as a kid, we have this giant TV in my living room and had, you know, aluminum foil all over the place so that it could transduce invisible energy and turn it into an image. So we have energy all around us, you know, we are energy, we don’t have it. We are it. So the Fascial system is structure, it’s communication, it’s a transducing receptive mechanism. And through it we express the fullness of our being.

Dr. Matt Lyon (40:33):

And so this is why it goes so much farther beyond health because when a person that is at their best and they’ve got that full functioning, optimized nervous system, they have full potential for life. And this is really about life, which is why I love techniques like Bowen or network of these very vitalistic techniques, even homeopathy. It’s about our perception and meaning of life, which now we know scientifically is one of the major drivers of health. So I hope that was a good, you know, way to look at it. The last thing I wanted to touch on is that, you know, we as humans are so born to move and Gay Hendricks, a PhD, he wrote the book I want to say upper limits, something like he gay Hendricks. You can look them up. You talked about how yeah, he was, I think he was here in Colorado for a while.

Dr. Matt Lyon (41:25):

He’s a PhD and he talked about you as babies. We have about 30,000 ways we move. You know, as we progressingly age people sort of shrink. You use the word earlier that I loved. You said people get into boxes, literally people live in boxes. You know, they stare at phones, they stare at screens, they get in their cars, hidden their cubicles and we feel less, you know, emotion is energy in motion. And the greater range of motion of the Facial system, the greater range of emotion that human being is going to be able to experience. And emotion is what has the most, one of the most powerful impacts on which genes are upregulated or downregulated. It’s a major portion of epigenetic theory. So this is really about life. And just to complete the statement about Gay Hendricks, you know, as people age, they move less and less and less and less.

Dr. Matt Lyon (42:09):

They experience less and less, less fullness of life. And of course, more pain and more issues. And the average American, I just found this stat, the average American who’s overseas two years old, takes 13 to 15 prescription medications. I mean, and you’re talking about the ability to interface with the most creative structures in the human body that are self-healing and self regulating. And that’s a miracle. That’s not a miracle. So much as it’s unscientific, it’s a principle and principles are always true. And what we see is miracles are actually really normal. It’s the natural effect of alignment and connection. So that’s why the Fascial system is so important. So I hope that encapsulates some useful.

Dr. Manon (42:55):

Oh yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s I can certainly say by experience, it’s what I, I see, you know, it feels that way and I think in, yeah, do express any part of that deep interconnection that we are, it frees people. It takes the box out. It’s bigger and you know, and I think, you know, people don’t like change apparently, but if you’re stuck in fear, it’s the only way. It’s the only way out. It’s, it’s to actually have change but embrace it. And I think to me anyways, understanding that there’s more, I used to have my subtitle in my clinic was for people who know there’s more and it’s a, it was actually called life changing the names a few times, but “Healing what is” so healing, what is, because that’s all we’re able to heal is what is right. I love that. That’s very enlightened. That was like a Zen master comment. I’m presuming we’re close to our time. We’re done. We’re done. But we’re not done. We’ll have to do this again. Yeah, I’d love

Dr. Matt Lyon (44:15):

To talk more. I just, I’m so grateful to be with you and to sit with you and you know, to any students or just anybody who’s listening, that Axiom, you know, that you’re self healing, self regulating and self organizing. It’s just true about your bodies. That about your mind. And and then to just lean into and have a relationship with that life and whatever we, you know, here’s the thing, you know, whatever we pay attention to tends to grow so we can fund our faith or we can fund our fear and we put our attention and have that relationship with that life. And every client I met, you know, I would just be in such relationship to the flow of life within them and I would fall in love with the person more than my technique. And just that heartfelt desire, gosh, miracles happen.

Dr. Matt Lyon (45:03):

And then, you know, you operate in that space and then you get really good at your Bowen technique and all of a sudden, man, your practice is going to change. And, and when, when you’re on fire, people will come from miles around to see you burn. And I’m sure you see this a lot of times at the results people get with these very precise and accurate Fascial techniques like bone is you can have a referral, totally insurance free practice, of course, in Canada. I don’t know if it’s different, but you can just create such a life of much contribution, which has the energy exchange of true abundance, whatever that means to you. Yeah, definitely. I really, Oh, wow. So fun. We’re going to get to see each other in just a few days and we’ll talk more. Okay. Will do. I’m just going to stop the recording, but thank you so much. I’m so grateful. Yeah.