cells starve inside. Children are used to have the type one diabetes where their pancreas did not produce enough insulin. These children used to die by age 10 until Banting and Best in Canada discovered and administered insulin. With that their lifespan became normal, quality of life improved. The person who treated the maximum number of type one children was Elliot Jocelyn of Boston, you heard of Joselyn clinic, that is named after him. He treated about 400+ type one patients and he was so amazed that it is a lifesaver for them, insulin. When he trained some nurses to go out into the community and give this cheaper insulin. So, they asked how do we keep up how do we determine the dosage because each child is different in his activity level, in his eating habits. So, Dr. Jocelyn went back to his room, he kept meticulous records of his patients and found out that if you give enough insulin to keep the blood sugar within normal range, that is the dosage that the child needs. Now when is…added or older and on or relative came with high blood sugar. Dr. Jocelyn thought it is the same disease but happening at a later age. He called it adult-onset diabetes. Remember at that time, there was no blood test available to measure insulin in the blood. Later, when that test became available, endocrinologist had a shock, because adults with high blood sugar had normal levels of insulin appropriate for their age. That confused them. So, then they changed the name to non-insulin dependent diabetes. That created a different set of problems because if you want to get insurance reimbursement, you need to have a CPT code. Get the code, you need to establish what is the cause? What is the effect? What is the treatment? And what is the logic? And how do you establish it, but it will say non-insulin dependent it is a separate disease from the type one. So, they manipulated the naming into type one and type two. So, they could piggyback the CPT code on type one. This is how it started.
Manon Bolliger 06:15
Wow. Yeah. It’s interesting. I’ve actually never heard that story. I didn’t know how that happened.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 06:26
Yeah. Then they found out most of the adult-onset diabetes are people who are obese or overweight. Now, the question is, how did they determine…how do they determine who is obese and who is not obese? That’s another fascinating story. Because that was not done based on actual measurements of patients or people. They asked the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company the age-appropriate weight.
Manon Bolliger 07:01
Okay.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 07:02
And the Metropolitan insurance company told them the average what each person’s weight should be at a particular height and gender. And they accepted it as truth. Now, this is all based on white ethnic population. And that’s the same weight table that is used all around the world. In our medical textbooks, that is what we learned. So almost every Indian child is underweight or not up to par.
Manon Bolliger 07:43
Right, right. Of course. Yeah. Wow.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 07:46
Now, so based on that, they found out 85% of adults who don’t have high blood sugar are obese, but in India 60% of the others who develop type two diabetes, are not obese. So how do you determine that obesity. So, what I have come up with in my book, Diabetes, the Real Cause and the Right Cure. This is the book. Okay, what our testing is…We all inherit a certain amount of fat storage capacity. After a meal, the liver keeps 120 grams of glucose. If you have a high carbohydrate meal, the rest of it is converted into long term storage to fatty acid and to fat, send it to fat cells. If fat cells are full, the fatty acids stay in the blood. Our muscle is the biggest producer of energy. But muscle ordinarily produces 70 to 80% of energy not from glucose, but from fatty acid. Otherwise, if you don’t eat all day, you cannot survive.
Manon Bolliger 09:14
Right.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 09:15
Heart muscle use almost exclusively fatty acid because heart cannot depend on glucose be available all the time. So, body’s very used to using fatty acid. In fact, if the fatty acid level is high, it automatically switches to fatty acid burning. So now let’s go back if you inherited 10-pound storage fat storage capacity, when that capacity is filled up, the fatty acids stay in the blood and the muscles convert to fatty acid burning, leaving glucose in the blood. If on the other hand if you have 50-pound fats storage capacity, you will gain weight, but your body is still using glucose because the fat is stored inside the fat cell.
Manon Bolliger 10:11
Right.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 10:12
So, obesity is a visual thing, it’s a cosmetic thing that is should not be a medical concern. For medical consideration, you need to know the fat storage capacity that you inherited. In India, for 1000s of years people are lean. Whereas in Western countries, they have more fat because of the climate, too as an insulator. Most people who are in the colder weather, temperature climate areas, they have more fat. That’s a natural protective mechanism. So, if an Indian and an American gain the same amount of weight, the Indian may be diabetic. But the American won’t be. And this is exactly what happens in young women who develop have gestational diabetes. Without any family history with no previous history, when a young woman gets pregnant, everybody is encouraging her eat this this is good for the child’s complexion. This is good for a child’s intelligence. This is good for his height, his muscled, she eats and eats fills up the fat storage capacity by the end of second trimester, her fats stores are full. The fatty acid stays in the blood. She searched her muscles switch to fatty acid burning leaving glucose and she gestational diagnosed with gestational diabetes. After delivery, when she loses weight, the fat stores are empty. Now, the fat can be stored, diabetes disappears. Now tell me how can insulin resistance come and go like that?
Manon Bolliger 12:09
Yeah. Well, no, it doesn’t make sense. So how do you explain that it’s still what is being said?
Dr. John Poothullil MD 12:24
Oh, that that is an interesting, very interesting question. That is what I went back to look at how did this happen? These endocrinologists are very smart people. There are two things that happen. One is they knew by giving insulin, you can bring the blood sugar down. So, before they found out there is enough insulin, they started manufacturing insulin already. Then the gadget manufacturers got in, they have, you know, from glucose strips to glucose gadgets to measure the amount of blood sugar in your body very easily. So, in type one diabetes, they knew if we can keep the blood sugar normal with insulin, their lifespan is good. So, they believed what’s called a confirmation bias. They believed this is the same thing, we will find the reason. They didn’t want to wait for the mechanism or the validation. Now, around 1921 or 1930s, there was first reports of penicillin resistant bacteria. So, Dr. William Falta, in Vienna, hypothesized, perhaps this is what is happening in adults with type two diabetes. Their body cells are not responding or resisting insulin. It was just a hypothesis. He said we need to test out, but endocrinologist couldn’t wait to validate the hypothesis. All they wanted was a hypothesis to justify giving these people insulin, and the insulin companies and the gadget manufacturers were willingly supportive of that idea.
Manon Bolliger 14:39
Wow, that’s such a, you know, cover up. But you know, it happens, it’s seems almost natural that it could happen. You know, in a sense that you want to help so you go ahead, and this works right and now you got a theory? Okay. It can be worked…it can be looked at later and then use a whole thing completely missed a complete misinformation, right? Yeah, incredible. Wow.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 15:12
So, the question is, for the last 20 years, I’ve been trying to spread this message, the only way it can change is if we empower the patient, educate the patient, just that is where you come in. That is why I’m so happy to be with you. Every type two diabetic patient should ask the doctor, hey, if I am resistant to insulin, why are you giving me insulin? If your body is resisting penicillin your doctor won’t give you that.
Manon Bolliger 15:52
No exactly.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 15:53
Okay. Secondly, even if I keep A1C below 7, 50%, I have 50% chance of getting my kidney damaged and going on to dialysis. 25% chance of having my vision gone. Higher probability of having heart attack strokes, Alzheimer’s, amputations. So, if insulin is the solution, why am I having all these problems. The patients or relatives can start asking these questions, then the endocrinologist will have to justify that’s where it drips down.
Manon Bolliger 16:38
Well, that’s often when they come see naturopaths you know, and then we and we start with Okay, well, what are you eating? What produces, you know, so what are your carbohydrate levels? And what you know, so we’re looking at more, you know, the holistic picture, their stress levels, everything else
Dr. John Poothullil MD 17:00
Exactly. Now, the next question you can ask me is that is the case? How do you explain the increase in the incidence of type two diabetes that is happening for the last 30-40 years?
Manon Bolliger 17:15
Yes, let’s go. Let’s go there.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 17:18
Okay.
Manon Bolliger 17:18
Perfect Question.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 17:20
What if you take the amount of food allergy coming from complex carbohydrates about 100 years ago, it was 30 to 35% of daily average food energy intake. Now, in developed countries, it is 50% in developing countries, it is 70% from complex carbohydrates, that is grains such as wheat corn rice, primarily. How this happened, it happened because of two things. One, the agricultural revolution that made seeds more resistant and more productive, second industrial revolution that made milling and refining possible.
Manon Bolliger 18:07
Right.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 18:08
In my view, grains were never intended for humans, otherwise, we would have had beaks to pick them up, and the ability to digest the chaff. But we don’t. But these two revolutions made it possible. And almost every government around the world subsidized grain farming.
Manon Bolliger 18:30
Yeah, yep.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 18:32
So now, when is the last time anybody had a meal or a snack without a grain or grain flour product?
Manon Bolliger 18:42
Well, in my universal often.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 18:45
This is why the incidence of obesity and type two diabetes is increasing all around the world. So, think about this, if you don’t put a carbohydrate containing food in your mouth. How can the blood sugar go up? So, there is a natural remedy. How to prevent it. So that is what…
Manon Bolliger 19:14
Yeah, and do you find in your experience, that it’s mostly grains and refined grains more than let’s say carbohydrates can be from potato from yams from you know, turnips? I mean, the root vegetables have some not the same level, you know, but bananas, you know, as far as a fruit, a Pitaya, you know, they also are quite high glycemic index foods. But do you find that it’s grains and maybe it’s the, you know, the way they’re produced or the Monsanto version of them or whatever, the toxicity of the possible glyphosate. I don’t know what have you seen that causes it?
Dr. John Poothullil MD 20:01
Again, what is that is a common question I’m asked each time I gave a talk. If you take 100 grams of whole wheat, it is 77 grams of pure glucose. Okay, the complex carbohydrates in a grain is up to two, each molecule of complex carbohydrate can have up to 200,000 molecules of glucose. They’re just stung together the long chain of glucose. If you refined that, refined rice, we’ll have in 100 grams of refined rice equal 80 grams of glucose. So, whether it is refined or whole does not make any practical difference,
Commercial Break 20:52
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Dr. John Poothullil MD 22:02
What makes the difference is the quantity how much you eat. And whether that carbohydrate come from yam or potato or sweet potato or grains, it makes no difference except the quantity. Now related to the quantity, there are two things one is can you think in nature of any food that an adult human being can get nutrients from without chewing.
Manon Bolliger 22:37
No, I think I mean, except for the generation of people who are smoothie believers. Which, to me doesn’t make any sense because you’re eating way too much. Right? But no everything else you have to take time by digest you know.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 22:55
That is why in the title of my first book is Eat Chew Live. How much can you chew boiled rice? How much can you chew soft bread? Noodles, pasta. When you stop chewing you swallow. So, the way we eat combined with the foods that made from grains and grain flour, cakes, cupcakes, you don’t chew there’s nothing to do. So, you are not only not enjoying it, you’re paying the price for it, when they are absorbed. That is why I come to the grains because most of the grain-based foods require very little chewing, you tend to eat more. If you can cut that down, you have better control.
Manon Bolliger 23:51
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, is there…is it you know, like, because normally we can feel satiated, right? We feel like we eaten enough, right? But if you go to an Italian restaurant, you know, or you have a big biryani, it doesn’t matter which one, you know, vegetables and everything else. You know, I guess you have to eat quite a lot before you feel you’re satiated. Unless there’s a lot of fat in the meal. Right? Like sometimes, you know, when you have enough fat in the meal, you get, you know, you get the signal that you’re full without having to have as much of the carbohydrates. Is that something you espouse too is that…
Dr. John Poothullil MD 24:52
But again, that is a very, very good question. I can answer it in two different ways.
Manon Bolliger 24:58
Okay
Dr. John Poothullil MD 24:59
One is, let us look at when you are thirsty. First of all, you cannot predict when you are going to be thirsty. Right? Can you tell me when you’re going to feel thirsty next?
Manon Bolliger 25:17
Not really, no.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 25:19
When you are 30, can you predetermine how much water will it take to quench your thirst? Can you predetermine?
Manon Bolliger 25:29
No, I don’t think so.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 25:30
Sometimes it takes two ounces, sometimes eight sometimes twelve. When you are drinking, how long does it take for you to drink that water? Just a couple of minutes at the most. Right. And you stop drinking when your thirst is quenched?
Manon Bolliger 25:50
Yup.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 25:51
Did you drink enough to fill up your stomach?
Manon Bolliger 25:56
No
Dr. John Poothullil MD 25:57
No, your capacity of the stomach is almost one liter.
Manon Bolliger 26:00
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 26:01
And if we have container with 12 ounces, you don’t always empty the container of water. You drink enough to satisfy your thirst to quench your thirst. How does the brain know because the water is still in your stomach? It has not been absorbed yet. It took two minutes. So how does the brain know you had enough water for that incident? Right?
Manon Bolliger 26:30
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 26:31
So, let me give you an…can I go on?
Manon Bolliger 26:35
Absolutely.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 26:37
Suppose I blindfold you and give you something to drink. How do you know whether it is water or wine or beer or coffee or tea?
Manon Bolliger 26:47
The taste.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 26:48
Yes, but what I am proposing in this book is those tastebuds are not only monitoring what is on the surface what’s in contact, but also metering what is going down. Your brain already knows what is the water deficit. And when the intake matches the deficit, the brain says okay, you had enough your thirst is quenched you don’t need anymore. There is a similar mechanism for other nutrients also. So, when you chew the food, the nutrient release, the rate of release is such that all the sensors in the mouth and in the nasal cavity can detect it, report it, report them to the center and the center we will create the satiation signal. The example is if you’re hungry, first of all you had to eat when you’re hungry. That first bite tastes so good. After a few minutes, the intensity of enjoyment has gone down. Why? Because the brain rewarded you were creating the sensation of enjoyment because you are putting into the body something the body needs. If you eat a straw, I mean anything that without any nutritional value, you won’t get that enjoyment.
Manon Bolliger 28:27
No.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 28:28
So, you need the brain has to identify this is valuable this needed but then the quantity control is already automatically built in. In order for that to happen, you have to chew the food, enjoy the food. Eating is your private enjoyment that you can have 3-4-5 times a day there is no other enjoyment that you get to as many times a day and still have full enjoyment, nothing. So, nature has given us the capability to control our own intake and nutrient needs, live a healthy life. Now, is there any example? Yes, all you have to do is look at toddlers between two and six. If you look at how they eat you will observe three things. One, they will eat only when they are hungry. Second, they will pick and choose. Grandmothers make five different dishes for the grandchild, and he will, or she will come and say I don’t want that. I don’t want that. I don’t like it. But what they pick they enjoy. Again, if you put a little of that yesterday she enjoyed this I’m going to put so much more today she may not even touch it. And when she is done, she could care less what is left on the plate she will rather go out and play. That’s very different from an adult. If you are invited for a party, your first thing is how to please the host, the host made 10 different things, I had to taste all of them. Otherwise, the host may get offended. I’m going to go for all you can eat buffet, I need to get my money’s worth. And the complex carbohydrate, they absorb water. And leave me the feeling of fullness. As against satiation. So over time, you have replaced satiation with fullness.
Manon Bolliger 30:40
That’s a really good point, actually. Because there is that but it’s different, you know, when you have something that is a real food, you know, because to be clear. But if you have, you know, even your I’m gonna go back to my Italian pasta. You know, that’s a small portion of pasta, but you have, you know, the vegetables or you have good olive oil. You’ll enjoy it, then you’ll feel satiated.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 31:15
Right.
Manon Bolliger 31:16
Without that feeling of oh, my god, I’m so full. Right. And I think that’s that…but I think that’s one of the things too, you know, when you look at Mediterranean cultures, you look at, well, even in India, if they use ghee, or do they use you know, stuff that’s not as good. You know, it makes a difference to your enjoyment.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 31:40
Yeah. So that is what we need to focus on.
Manon Bolliger 31:44
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 31:45
It is not how much you eat. It is how much you enjoy what you eat.
Manon Bolliger 31:53
That seems so easy compared to…it’s not punitive. It’s a lovely way of looking at food. Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 32:01
So that is you, all you have to do is to enjoy what you eat. What you cannot enjoy. Don’t eat it.
Manon Bolliger 32:08
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 32:09
Because then I ask people, if you take a bite of something, how much of that do you really enjoy?
Manon Bolliger 32:18
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 32:19
Most people will answer Oh, I enjoy all of it. I cannot. If you put 10 Potato chips in your mouth at a time, you enjoy only the one that comes in contact with the tastebuds. But you still swallow all of them. So why swallow the nine? If only one can be enjoyed? The other nine that causes a problem not the one that you enjoy.
Manon Bolliger 32:47
Yeah, no, very good. Very, very interesting. And doable ideas, you know, for people. It was very enjoyable to hear this. Plus, I love food. So, I love the idea of, you know, not…it’s not a deprivation, it’s more a consciousness of have the pleasure of what we have in front of us, you know, as long as it is pleasurable. I mean, how hard is that?
Dr. John Poothullil MD 33:23
Just more mindful eating.
Manon Bolliger 33:25
Exactly, exactly. Which is also what chewing is, right? It takes time to. Yeah, so do you have a rule or a thought or a belief about how many, you know, like, I know, when I was young, I forget what my mom said. But, you know, she, you know, you have to bite it X number of times, you know, of course it depends on the food, and you know, so it’s a hard but do you have any guidelines?
Dr. John Poothullil MD 33:53
My first comment days, they were more observant more sensitive. Their thought what was the that they were trying to teach us was right.
Manon Bolliger 34:06
Yes.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 34:07
The number is immaterial. It is how much are you enjoying of that food? That is what they want. If you tell them to eat, you know, chew, chew, chew, they don’t know. So, they put a number for convenience.
Manon Bolliger 34:21
Right. Right.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 34:23
So that is not to mean that’s not important. But are you enjoying? If you’re eating while watching TV?
Manon Bolliger 34:32
Yeah, you’re not focused.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 34:34
You’re not focused half the food is gone before you know oh what am I eating? So, we have signals coming from the mouth and the eyes. human brain can concentrate only on one signal at a time. You can do multitasking, but we cannot concentrate. So, if you’re concentrating on your visual signals, which take precedence over taste signals, then the eating becomes automatic.
Manon Bolliger 35:06
Yeah. Well, it’s funny, I read a book, I forget something like the skinny Parisian woman, right? It’s something like this. And it was, it was an interesting book, I read it maybe 20 years ago or so. And, she was explaining how, you know, you have your plate, the beautiful way that it’s laid out, the sauces, your glass of wine or champagne, but everything, you know, you start the enjoyment by the visual appearance, then you take your time to savor every taste, you know. And, and so this woman was eating, you know, all kinds of what our world often believes are not good, oh, fatty foods and this and that she was eating whatever she wanted, but up until there was no further enjoyment. You know, it was like, You remind me of her.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 36:10
That’s exactly right. Nature and God gave us the capability to enjoy. And we are sidetracking that.
Manon Bolliger 36:19
Right. Unnecessarily.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 36:22
Unnecessarily, and we are paying the price for it.
Manon Bolliger 36:25
Yes, yeah. And then we have misconceptions, and we get dogmatic in our views. And that’s it. Anyway, our time is up. But I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. And so where can people get your books and find out more about?
Dr. John Poothullil MD 36:45
Dr. John on health, or dr.johnondiabetes.com. That’s my website. And all my books are available on Amazon. And so, I have written six books, too. First two are on preventing body weight and diabetes. The second one is on reversing type two diabetes. Then around that time, I was diagnosed with cancer. So, I was curious about what cancer is.
Manon Bolliger 37:25
Yes.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 37:26
And I wrote the Book Surviving Cancer. How to help my doctor reduce the medication?
Manon Bolliger 37:39
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 37:40
Even when they say okay, you are a cancer survivor. What does that mean? That means, with the available tests, they cannot detect cancer cells, that doesn’t mean they are not hiding there. They are hiding. They cannot remove every little cancer cell from the body. And they can come back unless you get your immune system strong.
Manon Bolliger 38:04
Yeah
Dr. John Poothullil MD 38:05
And how to do that through diet. Then, I was giving a talk in a cancer hospital of all places. And one cancer doctor stood up and asked me, Dr. John, the average age of an adult with cancer is 60. Because it takes six decades of accumulation of mutations for cancer to develop, whereas the average age of a child with cancer is six. How can the child have cancer? That made me start thinking, and a couple of years later, I came up with the answer when your child has cancer. Because the simplest thing is cancer is uncontrolled multiplication of a cell. So, my first thinking was, how did the cell learn to divide?
Manon Bolliger 39:08
Yeah.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 39:08
And is what is the best evidence of control the multiplication?
Manon Bolliger 39:14
We should do another interview. I think we need to do another interview if you’re up for it. I would love to do that on the cancer and children. So yeah, why don’t we do that part two coming soon. And I’ll be in touch.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 39:30
Then I found out that a lot of misinformation, disinformation missing information. So how to navigate the information chaos. That is one that if my other book is not here, if I can go up to there. Give me one minute.
Manon Bolliger 39:48
Sure. Sure. Absolutely.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 40:06
This is the book we are just releasing this month. Because each time I give a talk about diabetes, people will ask what can we eat?
Manon Bolliger 40:16
Right, right. Yeah
Dr. John Poothullil MD 40:17
I tell them severely cut down on the grains and grain flour products. So, I heard it so many times, I teamed up with Colleen Kakowski who is a chef. And we produced we are just releasing it this month.
Manon Bolliger 40:34
Oh, great. Okay, well, I’ll put a link for that. And then I just want to thank you for your time and let’s do part two.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 40:45
Thank you Manon and thank you for having me and I thank our listeners.
Manon Bolliger 40:51
Thank you for all that wealth of information.
Dr. John Poothullil MD 40:53
Thank you.
Manon Bolliger 40:55
Thanks.
Ending
Continue your healing journey by visiting TheHealersCafe.com and her website and discover how to listen to your body and reboot optimal health or DrManonBolliger.com/tips.
Yes thank you Dr John we loved your podcast https://www.drmanonbolliger.com/dr-john-poothullil/ thank you for republishing it on your website.