take these sort of right. Angle turns sometimes. And so it did, and now I’ve been doing this for 20 years..
Dr Manon (03:34):
The heart and soul of becoming a doctor, whether it’s, a medical doctor or Naturopathic doctor, you still want to help people. Right. it’s the same in that sense, you know, it’s funny. I had very similar history. I was also accepted, you know, for medical school and and my big heart at that time was homeopathy. And just knowing what it was, I needed to know about the human being in pathology. And I looked at the programs and I went well. One of them really has all the diagnosis and stuff, but we have that in the other, but the other one has interesting other solutions. So I was like, well I could do with understanding nutrition a little bit better and Chinese medicine. So what was it, what was it for you ?when you say it? what attracted you? Because I think there’s a lot of people now that are wanting to be doctors, but they they’re kind of stuck and they don’t know Where they should go.
Dr Heli McPhie (04:47):
i’m a collaborative and ND so I believe in that no one paradigm has all the answers, right? Homeopathy doesn’t or naturopathic medicine Western medicine doesn’t if one paradigm did, there’d be a lot fewer illnesses or a lot fewer sick people, but you start putting them together and you get better health care for people overall it’s so it’s my soap box. I love it. I love the fact that I can have my one foot in the art of medicine because I have time with people and I want to hear their whole story. And I want to know how they are eating and how they’re feeling and where their emotional health is at, how they’re doing energetically. And then, you know, one heart, one foot in the art of healing and one foot in the science of it. Because naturopathic medicine, as you know, is sort of medicine backed natural medicine, but backed by science, it’s not just random.
Dr Manon (05:48):
it’s not the distinction to me its not the science in both because they both have science. All these components, what is it? And I totally agree with the integrative approach. I think that we should be all working together for sure. But what is it that you feel are the, when you’re looking at a clinic and you know, many people are looking to have a full integrated clinic. What are you looking for in the qualities of what an M D or that profession has to offer?
Dr Heli McPhie (06:29):
What I find so powerful in naturopathic medicine is our ability to question, and also our openness we’re open to possibilities, we’re open to the idea that something else might be going on. I have a lot of patients that come to see me, right. That have, that have really exhausted all their options in Western medicine and have been told that, well, you’re fine. You’re just tired. Or you know, drink more coffee. One of my patients was told. And so I love it when we can look at something from the possibility of something else and have tools for helping them. That is what makes me excited. I love the fact that my toolbox is vast, It has Bowen, it has acupuncture. It has homeopathy, nutritional medicine botanical medicine, counselling, massage, body work, all of that is in there.
Dr Heli McPhie (07:24):
And when your toolbox is that fast, when you see a patient, I don’t know if you have this, but when I hear a patient, you can hear what tool they want to use right. When someone is speaking that they need a homeopathic remedy, you can hear when someone is speaking, that they need acupuncture you know, if they need Bowen. And so I loved the idea of truly going after the fundamental cause not just hiding symptoms, that felt like doing something really well. And I loved that idea, a lot of people, I don’t know if you’ve had this, but I mean, it’s not as much now, but people used to come into me and whisper my medical doctor doesn’t know I’m here all the time. And it’s like, that’s okay. We’ll give him a call if you want.
Dr Heli McPhie (08:15):
And as often as I’m like, well, why I would love it if doctors on both sides put their egos aside right. And started working together because there’s a lot of fear-based. I still hear the argument. I don’t know if you do, but I still hear the argument. Well, naturopathic medicine has no research behind it. And I’m like, really? Have you looked in a journal? Because how many GPS are out there doing research? I don’t know of a lot of GPS. And so that we often get the argument Naturopathicpathic medicine, doesn’t do its own research. Well, how many GPS are doing their own research? But we do benefit from the research that has been done out there. So I see it all the time when we collaborate within our clinic with the person, the patient’s medical doctor, with the counsellor and our clinic with Bowen therapy, with physiotherapy, with whatever the patient needs or is calling for what their body is calling for, that the results are mindblowing.
Dr Heli McPhie (09:21):
My team and I, we kind of, we remind ourselves in staff meetings to not get complacent with the little miracles that we see when someone has been feeling awful for a decade. And then within a month they feel like they’re sleeping and they’re feeling better and their head doesn’t hurt and they’re not brain foggy. And their digestive tract is working better. And, and, and, and, you know, we kind of go, we nod and go, right. But I’m like, Hey, wait a minute. They felt awful for a decade. Let’s just celebrate this little miracle. I love that. So, I mean, that’s, I think that’s what my own success with Naturopathic medicine before I went to medical school perked my interest. And then I worked with Dr. Mattson for a bit to see what he, and how it worked and what naturopathic medicine was. And then I saw a couple of other doctors and then I was sold. Right. Then I knew that that was, that was it for me, that was this fit better. And that I would probably work with other medical doctors in life. because I’m grateful for antibiotics. I’m, you know, every now and then we need them. I’m grateful for medicine. I’m grateful for surgery, I’m grateful for cancer treatments. And you know, I just think that it’s important for us to be open to other possibilities,
Dr Manon (10:41):
I think you really hit on a very important point and it is that openness, you know, which is very different because I have colleagues that are medical doctors or that have come to see me as as patients. And the main thing is they can be good diagnosis, but everything is very limited in its solutions compared to when you’re you have a million ways of treating something, then you also put in question, what am I actually treating? What is the bottom line what’s underneath this? And, you know, we could act physiologically the very same way and give natural substitutes for, pharmaceutical drugs, but that’s not doing proper naturopathic medicine. It’s not listening to the patient.
Dr Heli McPhie (11:40):
I think when you’re truly treating the cause, when you’re treating the underlying cause and when you believe in the healing power that the body is always trying to heal and the healing power of nature, it is the more I practice, the more that just……… I don’t know,…….it’s like a Prosecco bubbles, it makes me excited. It just does because there’s power in that. And so I know that if we could harness that and make it part of the mainstream, it would be so terrific. You know, we are still, we were, I think historically medicine got very excited when they got antibiotics and when they got certain pharmaceuticals to treat right. But if you think about it, it changed acute medicine, right? It changed acute medicine. Someone had someone needed a painkiller for for a bone break.
Dr Heli McPhie (12:35):
Someone needed an antibiotic for a bad wound. That was exciting medicine, but what’s happened is that now we think that pharmaceuticals will solve every problem. And I don’t think that you can cure a lot of the chronic illnesses. You can mask them, but you can’t necessarily cure them with a pharmaceutical. Like you, you just can’t, you can make them, you can prolong people’s life and you can make them seemingly feel better. But are we actually helping longterm? And so, you know, I love Steve jobs a beautiful quote. I think I’m sure, you know, it, something like, you know, “if you don’t allow medicine to be your food at some point if you don’t allow food to be your medicine, right. At some point medicine will be your food.”.
Dr Heli McPhie (13:35):
I think that if we allowed naturopathic doctors and if it became sort of the norm that we did more work with the chronic issues and work collaboratively with MDs, our medical costs would go down so drastically. I see it time and time again. I know you have, So look at things like blood pressure, cardiovascular illnesses, mood disorders, which is what my passion is. I’m hoping we talk about that. Exzema allergies, all of these sort of chronic digestive issues, IBS. I mean, IBS to me is not a diagnosis by the way, it’s a description. Your bowels are exactly fatigue syndrome. That is not a diagnosis. It’s a description, fibromyalgia, sore muscles, not a diagnosis. It’s a description what’s underlying all of these. I’m fascinated by that as a biologist, I think vectors are gonna come into our playing field and in a much bigger way in our medicines future kind of like inflammation is the trendy thing now. we’re finally starting to see that maybe egg yolks, weren’t the demise of our cholesterol. And maybe we should be focusing a little bit more on inflammation instead.
Dr Manon (15:03):
This is great. I love speaking to people who are passionate about what we do, because one of the biggest things,…. and I think you nailed it , it gives people hope as well, but not like the hope that is like, Oh, it’s just all in your head. No The hope that what they’re feeling is for real and just because you can’t, you know, put it in a box, the labeling of the box is not the solution. It’s like, you’ve got, you know, IBS. Okay. Now let’s look, why do you have IBS? And why do you have anxiety? And why do you have like…….. There’s a lot more connected and that’s the part about being the detective.
Dr Manon (16:06):
The interrelationship of the way our entire body works,I just find that so exciting. And then sharing that with people is I think thats the most exciting part, they feel like they’re part of their health journey. You know, they, it’s not like we’re just telling them you’ve got this and take that. And that’s what I find so rewarding is that they’re, getting interested. I’ve found that the patient then kind of goes, do you think that this might have impacted me? And it’s like, you know, the fact that they think it makes it likely true because we all know inside what’s really affecting us.
Dr Heli McPhie (16:53):
What I love about natural and naturopathic medicine is that we are empowering our patients, we’re allowing them to be in charge and take control of their healthcare.if this pandemic has shown us something and hopefully taught us anything, it’s that we have to take control and be in charge of our wellbeing mentally and physically, like we can’t just say, okay, I’m going to you know, not take care of my health, being very poor condition. And then if I get some kind of a virus, well, let’s hope that healthcare will take care of it. And sort of giving it over to someone, I think this virus showed us that, you know, those people that are not healthy there is not necessarily anything that can be done.
Dr Heli McPhie (17:49):
But you can do lots of things to help prevent that.I’m very, very concerned and passionate about making sure that our patients in clinic know that as much as possible and working with the doctors within our community to say, Hey, you know what? It doesn’t have to be complicated, but we do need to improve the health of our patients because there has been this idea if I get high blood pressure, I’m going to take blood pressure pills. Well, if I get high cholesterol, I’m going to take cholesterol pills. Well, if I take, if I get allergies, I’ll take allergy pills. If I get pain, I’ll take pain pills. If I have a low mood, I’ll take mood pills. Really like, well, what happens if you’re not healthy?
Dr Heli McPhie (18:37):
There are no unhealthy pills……. and you know, this virus showed the weakest link in all of us. It did. So I’m hoping before the next round or wave even though I think we’re already in the second wave if we can convince our patients and their doctors, that we have a role to play in chronic health care, that will be a huge life lesson, a silver lining from this whole thing. If doctors start working together more, put aside egos ……when I was younger, I, always worried about egos Sort of talked down to by Western medical doctors. I no longer have that at all. I just don’t think that there is room or space in medicine for that.
Dr Manon (19:35):
And I think too, we need to also look at the systems that facilitates the individual doctor, whether it’s a natural body doctor or a medical doctor, that’s the root cause of the systemic problem. it’s usually the system that we, we tend to accept, And when you look at allopathic medicine, you know, it’s the generalist, your GP then sends you to specialists and the specialists don’t talk to each other. And you’re basically as a patient, your experience is that there’s potentially a solution, at least a pain management or a symptom management solution for every body part. That’s how they come out of it. And that’s reinforced because the, even the GP doesn’t necessarily see the patterns involved until they become sick. And then, you know, and they need to look for different solutions.
Dr Heli McPhie (20:45):
You know, to be fair, I have friends are GPS and it’s hard to diagnose in a complex case in the short period of time that they have per patient. I mean, I feel for them and we talked about this…..how do you actually then fully collaborate with someone? And because we have time, I mean, I am so grateful for the time that I have With patients,
Dr Heli McPhie (21:13):
, I have an hour or sometimes more is needed,To get the entire case together. And to really look at it. And often, I mean, often it takes several visits until the full, the full picture starts coming through. I don’t know about you, but I’ve had many patients that tell me the most important part. Oh, by the way, as they’re walking out the door…….So if we started working together, you know, the GP,S and the Western medicine, it’s brilliant acutely. It has amazing things to offer. I’m grateful that we have it. But wouldn’t it be miraculous to see the change in health. If we started working together, I would love it. I would love it.
Dr Manon (21:59):
,well, let’s talk about mental health because that is also one of the, you know,……………we’ve been so much focused at the fighting the virus, the outside attacker kind of thing. And, and we’re noticing that so many people are suffering from isolation from lack of care from loneliness, from mental health. So what are your thoughts on that? And since you said it’s a passion………..
Dr Heli McPhie (22:57):
Connection and community have been a passion of mine for a while now. I’m actually, I’m just contemplating whether to do a masters in looking at loneliness as a major social determinant of health. I think some countries have already recognized that it is a huge issue for us, you know, there’s that classic line that loneliness is more detrimental to your health than smoking because of that study that came out. And it’s true. I mean, loneliness has been shown to increase inflammatory rates ubiquitously across your body. So of course it affects us profoundly especially mentally and emotionally. So our clinic and I am especially passionate about connection and creating connections for people. I think this pandemic highlighted how profound connections are, because we, you know, I was just sitting outside with some friends yesterday and we were also very grateful and all of us said, we will never take for granted seeing each other’s face, face to face again, while I love seeing you by zoom, I would be very much happier sitting on that deck with you right now, having this conversation.
Dr Heli McPhie (24:09):
So I think the mental health affects of this pandemic…….only now and later will, start being revealed. I am just becoming more and more fascinated by that. You know, I’m a biologist. I know that we have evolved into these amazing social beings. We do better when we’re together. We just do. I mean, if you think about it, we are not that awesome as a species. I mean, we don’t have claws, we can’t fly, we can’t swim under water. We don’t have fangs. We don’t have excessive speed. We can’t see very far.we just don’t. But you put us together and wow. The things we can do are incredible. And so we evolved as social beings, But our, history has sort of started celebrating the individual, do it on your own.
Dr Heli McPhie (25:07):
You can be number one. And that’s led to a lot. And these gadget things have led us to be even more isolated. We need to start changing that a bit. I don’t think we’ve thought it through enough. You know, when cars first came out we didn’t have seatbelts. We drove wherever we wanted. And then people started going, well, we keep losing lives, let’s add some safeties to this. And that took until the late seventies and eighties. Right. I remember bouncing around in the backseat of my parents’ car in Africa, Willy nilly. And then we kind of think how long that took over 70 years for that to come in.So it’s gonna take us a while until we find safeties for these gadgets as well. And starting getting it up into our, into our norms. They’re not going away cars didn’t go away.
Dr Heli McPhie (26:02):
These gadgets will not either they’ll evolve, but they’re not going to go away. So lets start to look at how they are affecting us mentally and our connections and making sure that we’re taking care of those is vital. It’s vital, absolutely vital. our clinic is starting to do more and more mental health collaboratively. So we use Bowen, I mean, I got to tell you, when when Shannon a beautiful Bowen therapist at our clinic, when she does a vagel release, right. Or a vagel flush on someone that is hyper anxious or stressed, it is wonderful to see that human being leave to see that patient leave because they go i can breathe . And you know, we have a beautiful counsellor, Susan in our, in our clinic that I love working with. And so I’ll do the nutrition part or just their general health and wellbeing and looking at inflammatory rates and she’s doing the counselling .
Dr Heli McPhie (27:02):
Shannon’s doing some bowen We have a wonderful physiotherapistFlorence McDonald that often makes sure that they’re aligned. And it is incredible to see suicidal patients that are no longer suicidal to see OCD patients that couldn’t move off their stove. They had to turn it off for an hour. All of a sudden, not even worrying about their stove to see depressed patients that were on the verge of suicide, getting their life back, to see people that woke up and went to bed every day with anxiety lose that. You know, I just, I actually reached out to a person who’s building an incredible mental health centre in Mexico because I wanted to know if they were going to do that collaboratively. And they said, yes, we’re doing it collaboratively. But they met within Western medicine only. And to me that isn’t collaborative, that’s just working together.
Dr Heli McPhie (27:58):
. Collaborative truly it’s not multidisciplinary either multidisciplinary his garage medicine, because you can just go into whichever garage when you’re truly collaborating on a case. It means all your heads are in that. And you’re all putting your 2 cents in about how you can help that case. Sometimes I don’t know. I don’t know what I don’t know sometimes.. So it’s nice to try this and people don’t respond. I always say it’s like, there’s different doors that open that healing process. And you know, I mean, definitely you’ll never hear me say anything negative about Bowen, because it’s been a huge part of my practice. But if a person does not want to get touched, they don’t want even light touch. It’s not the right door for them. Then we have to use something else that allows them to sort of unravel their story and then know what may make sense, you know? And it’s interesting, but I do find there’s so many people, especially in mental health and that’s one of my big passions and currently, is really understanding how the physiology of our body can change through specific touch. It’s not necessarily. And again, this is not saying other other touches don’t work for the effect that they’re wanting, but with Bowen therapy, you know, you affect the vegas nerve. You affect, the parasympathetic system, which is so necessary for the healing process. When you take……
Dr Heli McPhie (29:42):
Literally the physiological anxiety out of the body, it changes everything, and you get people to go, wow now i know, I can stand straighter and then we know the impact of the structure on how we feel and if it’s easier to open up everything changes. So, it’s like, it’s a positive feedback cycle………then people can go, well now I, you know, I do need to sort through some of the things that happened and that’s fine. There’s a place for some of that, you know, without going into repeating the negative patterns that we’ve been in, but we need our stories told and we need resolution and we need different things and, you know, gut health, it’s massive too, you know, if you’re not eating right, it’s, it also impacts your mental health. So it’s like looking at everything and going, what does this person need to have the most impact first? So they, they actually know that we’re trying to….. We want the transformation. We want them feeling like they’re in charge of their health and totally better.
Dr Heli McPhie (30:58):
What puzzles me so much is this, why Western medicine and why doctors think and taught that Western medicine is truly the only science-based medicine that there is, and this is it. And other medicines are Wu and quackery and blah, blah, blah. I mean, in some ways I, I felt last year and the year before that naturopathic medicine, was kinda like the witch hunts again of the 16 hundreds 1400. And I’m like, really aren’t, we, I didn’t even engage in that. There was no there’s too much good medicine to be done within clinic to start even listening, listening to that. And I do not understand how, if you are putting in diet seven up or, you know, some kind of aspartame and Twinkies and crap and sugar, how you expect yourselves then to make exceptional cells, how you expect your body to make exceptional human immune systems.
Dr Heli McPhie (32:01):
if that is your big building block right. if that’s what you’re feeding, if you’re fueling your body, because, you know, if you’re, if you’re driving an elite car and you put in terrible gas, it’s going to run funny, right? I mean, that makes sense to us. If we, we feed our dogs amazingly, because we want them to feel, feel well. And then we’re perfectly willing to put toxins into, into our body. That that makes no sense to me. And I don’t understand why that is such a threat, Why is that such a threat? In Western medicine? I, I understand, you know, I understand the power of pharmaceutical giants. I understand that. But maybe now it’s a perfect time to start looking outside the box. where are the places that we can work together with What do we Excel at? And instead of constantly being fear-based and angry, Let’s start going……… “Well, you know what I agree with that let’s do that. This is a little bit, I don’t understand that very much” because the fear comes from lack of understanding. “I don’t understand that. Can you explain it to me or let’s not do that together yet? “I don’t know if I’m going to see it in my lifetime in medicine, but I sure hope so.
Dr Manon (33:25):
I think the first thing is they acknowledge that there is a ” system “problem.and from the many doctors I’ve talked to that, that is a pretty strong consensus. It’s that A lot of them feel limited because of the time and because their training guides them basically. I mean, I’ve had doctors say, I feel like I’m a pharmaceutical peddler, thats not a happy feeling. So a lot of them that I’ve talked to have said, you know, you are so lucky. You get to really do the old fashion medicine where you get to know your patient, love your patient, and you can see it through, even if you will refer and all of that, you’re, you’re in the best position.
Dr Manon (34:33):
And I think that’s why so many doctors are taking it upon themselves to learn other therapies. I mean, nutrition wasn’t even part of their curriculum. So I think all of that, I’m very, I mean, I can’t help I’m always optimistic. That’s probably why I’m healthy, but it’s like, you I see that there’s only so long you can defend something that’s broken. I also see though the forces that play, you know, if and funding something doesn’t mean that it’s necessarily a hundred percent biased, but science is science. And at one point the scientific rigours or lack of will come through. But it certainly changes things when medical schools are funded by pharmaceuticals.
Dr Heli McPhie (35:34):
I’m just saying that this, the arrogance that suggests that it is the only toolbox Patients are calling for that. I think, I don’t know if doctors, I think patients will lead the way and will demand a certain type of health care and maybe medicine will follow. I mean, it’s happening already the supplement and nutraceutical industry is huge. I’m just worried sometimes that people are taking too many things. Because it’s, self-directed based on articles that have been read instead of seeing a Naturopathic Doctor , patients that come in with a bag full of supplements and I don’t think that’s healthy either.
Dr Heli McPhie (36:38):
They don’t, they don’t, they rattle when they walk. Right. I get that sometimes, with some of the illnesses out there, your response has to match what you are battling, what you are effectively trying to change, but I never put someone on a supplement I’ve never in 20 years, put someone on a supplement expecting them to be on that for the rest of their lives. However, I expect their body to change. And then the treatment plan will change accordingly.I just hope that more doctors start looking at the possibility that we have something to say and something to offer, and that as doctors, we took the same oath and that we do not want to do any harm and that we do not want to you know, create chaos. But we do want to heal people and we want to do it well.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
It’s the same oath we took. We just have a few other lines on the bottom because of we want to do it naturally and with the healing power of nature and looking at the underlying cause I’m hoping that message message gets out there. I would love to do it. And I want to work with you on on some of my patients downtown because we,re seeing More anxiety, more worried, more low mood, partly coming from our isolation because we haven’t hugged people. Some people we haven’t touched people, we haven’t connected. And it’s stressful. It’s stressful worrying about our parents’ health, our children’s health you know, our ill relatives or ill friends. There’s this sort of underlying low grade subconscious and conscious worry all the time. I felt like I got emotional whiplash. It happens so quickly……. Monday you’re in practice. The next day clinic is closed. And the other thing, you know, which is
Dr Manon (38:36):
For me very worrisome and I’ve gotta be very careful because we as professionals have a gag order on being able to speak completely freely about what’s going on. But I question the lack of transparency on the science that is being brought forward. Do you know, it’s like do we wear masks? Do we not wear a mask? Why do we do, why don’t we you know, I think it was today, I believe NBC or I forgot which station, you know, the, WHO said, asymptomatic carriers have an extremely low, it may not be carriers and have a very low risk of you know, infecting other people. And it’s like, Hmm, of course. And that could have been tested right away. You know? So again, it’s question. It is very hard and that’s that thing I think that needs to change in people is ask more questions………
Dr Manon (39:46):
And it’s our schooling system. It’s our family structure. It’s patriotical structure. We’re raised not to ask questions and to be obedient. And I have nothing against, you know, obeying, but obey and ask questions, you know, with intelligence. Yeah. And it’s like, let’s have this dialogue I found it very upsetting when I was told, I can’t talk about the immune system or that that’s something people can work on because to me,, it’s, that’s exactly one of our specialties. Its understanding very deeply how we’re made up and what affects and what are stressors to our body. And so I found that very difficult. Why is it that all we can say officially or at the time was, you know, wash hand and isolate. it puts people into victimhood as if it made no difference what they ate. It made no difference, you know, getting some fresh air as if the sun made no difference, .
Dr Manon (41:00):
What on earth, is the possibly bad thing that can happen from suggesting someone to walk daily, eat five colours of vegetables and fruit, drink water, get your sleep, do some meditation stretch your body laugh a bit connect with others……..?
Dr Heli McPhie (41:31):
Truly. Yeah, really.
Dr Heli McPhie (41:34):
if someone argued that I’m not allowed to say that, I would absolutely question. Why, why, like, how is that any less important than…………..
Dr Manon (41:52):
, I was actually called for using the word something about take charge of your health and boost your immune system. And I didn’t say, you know, take all these things because you can’t do that. As as a doctor it’s individualized, but again, it was giving hope that you can do something you know, yourself your immune system matters. Because if you look at what was open, you know drug stores ,alcohol stores and fast food places, I was like, okay, that’s interesting, even worse in the United States, but it’s fascinating to see……… If we need to stand up, what’s it going to take for people to feel safe, to be wrong? Like maybe it’s wrong, maybe it’s right. But let’s discuss it and let’s not censor and censor ourselves or censor everything that’s coming out, you know, on YouTube or Facebook or it’s, it seems like when people ask questions or they have context to their questions, that’s called censorship.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
I don’t even claim to understand it all.I do hope that we do start asking more questions, do come back to a bit more common sense medicine,do start working more together do start being open to possibilities of health and healing and expecting it. I mean, I think after 22 years in naturopathic medicine, I always expect the body to change. It can’t always necessarily be cured or, or heal fully, but I always expect some kind of a change or a transformation something’s going to be different. And sometimes that leads to someone feeling absolutely fabulous. And sometimes that leads to someone feeling better. But you know, you asked me in the beginning, what is it that why? I mean, in essence, why am I still passionate about this? That’s why, right. Cause like with every single case be it someone who is incredibly depressed or someone that has a chronic IDs I see the change every time I see something. And so that’s what I, I think, I mean, that’s what I love doing. And besides, I love collaborating with people like you and all the people in my clinic. So I truly appreciate this time with you. It was lovely.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
I hope I get to sit on that deck someday and have a similar conversation. Maybe we actually need to plan that, but thank you so much for coming and Take care. Bye bye.
Thank you for joining us. For more information, go to DrManonBolliger.com.
