evolution for me.
Manon Bolliger 02:50
Yeah, so yeah. Well, and you know, often there is right, there’s a personal component, and then sort of what is your nature or your interests, you know, if you’re living your passion, right. So you’ve been then in medicine, I gotta do my math. 72
Lucinda Sykes 03:09
77 was when I graduated.
Manon Bolliger 03:11
77
Lucinda Sykes 03:12
Here, yeah, Toronto. Yeah.
Manon Bolliger 03:13
Yeah. So that’s many years. And in practice
Lucinda Sykes 03:17
It is.
Manon Bolliger 03:18
Yeah. And what have you learned over the years about, I think, specifically the doctor patient relationship, and how has it changed, in your view over this time?
Lucinda Sykes 03:33
Well, I would offer that archetypically. It hasn’t changed a bit, you know, the shamanic relationship with the healer, that is the foundation, even of the most scientifically based medicine. It’s to be in the room with the other person who is devoted to your well-being who is wanting to call up the spirits, even if they’d be the scientific spirits of the modern age in your service. And so, that really is the foundation of healing in my estimation. But these days, it’s pretty awkward to call that up as a physician. For one thing, there’s always the third party in the consultation room now, that third party is some form of government intervention really. Whether it’s your regulatory body or it’s the funding agency, there’s always a third party standing between the patient and the doctor and the healer. And I, I must say, I think that my younger colleagues don’t quite recognize how serious a problem it is. But you know, maybe that’s why they should get older, and you think well in my day, but I am, I am concerned that physicians now are becoming more technicians and they are simply applying the excepted treatment to the diagnosed problem. And a lot of the scale and indeed the art has been undermined.
Manon Bolliger 05:12
But when you take away the art piece, which is the ability to perceive outside of the box
Lucinda Sykes 05:21
Yes
Manon Bolliger 05:22
You know, which is also the clue to how to heal that person.
Lucinda Sykes 05:26
Yes, absolutely and I see that in your work, you know, for sure, for sure. And now that I’m in the world of coaching is quite inspiring to me now, because as a coach, one is not diagnosing and one is not treating, but rather, you are serving another human being who wants to get somewhere. And take them in their unique self, rather than categorizing them and diagnostic labels and treating them in the accepted manner. And it’s very exciting to work with, in some ways, similar problems, but from this different-to-different perspective.
Manon Bolliger 06:07
And so, you’ve been doing that since…and focusing more on sleep problems, right?
Lucinda Sykes 06:13
Yes, yes, yeah, I had to end my in person teaching at meditation for house back when COVID came into Toronto, I was right in the middle of teaching one of my groups. I remember, week three of the eight week MBSR program. And I had to stop right in my tracks there and never returned. Actually, it was quite, quite sudden. So, I did, I had a number of outreach programs at the clinic already. One was for women over 50. And so I continued that and just put it on to zoom. And, but I also had an outreach regarding sleep. So, they sort of naturally shifted on to zoom. And then I went from there into, I guess she would call it an online presence. But my era of meditation for health, her doors are shut, the lease is gone, the doors are shot, but I have my good friend, my colleague, the administrator of meditation for health, she and I are still a dynamic duo. And we do put out a newsletter. And we do hold programs for our ladies, because now I’ve narrowed my focus, as you pointed out to women over 50.
Manon Bolliger 07:41
And how is that experience for you be like, it’s a different experience. But what is what are you missing from practice? And what are you receiving here that you didn’t expect?
Lucinda Sykes 07:59
Well, you know, maybe it was time. Because I had been teaching mindfulness as a physician for since 1997. That’s when I established meditation for health as its clinic here in Toronto. And so, I had been teaching MBSR Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction, to grow groups, patients who are all referred by other physicians, teaching stress reduction, methodically, year after year, and it had become decade after decade. And it hadn’t occurred to me to stop, but COVID came and stopped me and, you know, I’m so fortunate, I’m still a healthy woman, and I have lots of energy, and I really loved the profession. And so COVID came and just kind of nudge me into a different lane.
Manon Bolliger 08:49
And what attracted you to sleep issues or why that path?
Lucinda Sykes 08:58
What a good question that is. Well, you know, I have a background in the psychology of Carl Jung. And in fact, I analyzed for 10 years with the great Marion Woodman and Fraser Bola so fortunate. And then I went to Zurich and studied at the young Institute. And so, dreams are very important to me. And so, I’ve had to have that training and background. And then as well as a mindfulness teacher. Well, by gosh, the research would confirm that MBSR is a very effective modality to help people sleep. And so, I had been seeing it right from the very first group I taught. Patients came up to me and said, Lucinda I’m sleeping so much better. And that surprised me because I hadn’t yet cottoned on to that fact that my husband MBSR in particular could really help them sleep.
Manon Bolliger 09:54
Can you share a little bit MBSR just for people who don’t know?
Lucinda Sykes 09:58
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. MBSR (Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction) was a program developed by the great scientist and clinician Jon Kabat Zinn and his colleagues down at the University of Massachusetts. And he developed that, in the late 80s. First paper he published was 1991. And it was, he and his colleagues had adapted the ancient practice of mindfulness to the needs of modern hospital patients who were suffering from chronic pain. So that’s where he began his work. He was bringing mindfulness to people with chronic pain, and then he expanded to anxiety. And fortunately for us all, John is a very fine scientist. So, he conducted studies and published them. And so, this, the fact that mindfulness had therapeutic power, came into even mainstream medicine. And that’s where I heard about it up here in Toronto, and then went down and trained away. So that mindfulness-based stress reduction, it’s called.
Manon Bolliger 11:11
And essentially like, what…how does it work? Like, it’s like you consciously do something, but it works on your subconscious. Or what? Can you explain it in laymen?
Lucinda Sykes 11:28
Well, yes. Well, you know, mindfulness can be explained very simply. Mindfulness has been most directly codified or cultivated, in the great traditions of the East, you know, Buddhism, and to some extent, the Vedic traditions, the Hindu traditions. And mindfulness is the modern English translation of the word Sati or Schmiti, depending on whether you’re speaking poly or Sanskrit, but it means three things or four things. Pardon me. And I’m, of course, speaking from the perspective of the University of Massachusetts, which is where my training was based. It means that, number one, you’re doing it on purpose. So right now, let’s, let’s you and I be mindful. Number one, we’re doing it on purpose. Number two, we’re paying attention. And number three, what we’re paying attention to, is what we’re experiencing right now. Whatever that might be. And number four, crucially, our attitude is, we could say it’s non-judgmental. We’re not trying to change our experience. We’re not trying to have a better experience, we are simply witnessing the experience without judging, and that is mindfulness. And oddly, some would say we are born into mindfulness, although it’s not something that children do on purpose.
Manon Bolliger 12:58
Right. Yeah. And you’re just remind me of their non-judgement of it. It’s that learners open mind is what is whatever it be. Yes. noticing what is like Byron, Katie. She has lovely what is, but you can take the love out.
Lucinda Sykes 13:19
Yeah, take the love out. Take the love out that is too ambitious.
Manon Bolliger 13:27
You know, and so how is that related? I mean, that’s a way of being. It’s a way of interrelating with another person or with the environment with everything. How is it related with the sleep? Is it because one practices this that life is perceived differently, and therefore sleep is easier, or? Or is there a practice for sleep that makes it work?
Lucinda Sykes 14:02
Well, the young in me, we offer that perhaps another word for mindfulness is consciousness. Being aware of what’s happening right now. And we’re not surprised as human beings to acknowledge that consciousness is tremendously powerful. To know something, to know it deeply…we have power. And oddly, it has agency to when we know things deeply, often they transform just under the power of our consciousness. So, consciousness, mindfulness has an agency to it. And we bring mindfulness to our sleepless state. And often things transform, just because we’re paying attention as well. Mindfulness can be a vehicle or a container, within which we can pop in and affirmation. Or we can pop in a mantra. Or we can do some mindful stretching, some breath, work and so on. And all contained within, within mindfulness.
Manon Bolliger 15:15
So, I had a person who worked for me as my main front desk, person. So, I actually have a little funny story because she expected a full interview when I first hired her. And I really had very little experience hiring people. I wasn’t sure how to do this, and we talked a little bit. And then she talked about Byron Katie. Talked about, you know, how she just loves to, and she had come to the clinic before, and saw people laughing and enjoying their visit and coming out and, and so anyway, so she took the job, I hired her, there was no question.
Lucinda Sykes 16:03
She mentioned, Byron, Katie, and now you’re hired.
Manon Bolliger 16:10
No, but you know, some people that they hold the space, and you just know, done the work anyway. But she had a very severe sleep problem. That didn’t worry her, which I found to be interesting. And she taught me that for 10 years. She just observed that she wasn’t sleeping. Yes. And then it stopped.
Lucinda Sykes 16:36
Yes, yes. Yes.
Manon Bolliger 16:39
Yeah, it was like, and I thought, wow, you know?
Lucinda Sykes 16:43
Brilliant. It’s often what’s really disturbing us, in our sleeplessness is not the sleepless state ourselves itself, but rather the story we are making about the sleepless.
Manon Bolliger 16:57
About what it means. Yes.
Commercial Break 16:59
Manon Bolliger here. And I want to thank you for taking actionable steps towards engaging your healing journey, and helping others discover their path by watching, sharing, subscribing, and reviewing these podcasts. Every review and share helps spread the word these different perspectives and choices and options for healing. And to thank you, I’d like to invite you to sign up to my free seven sequence email tips on health and healing for everyday life. You can go www.drmanonbolliger.com/tips, thanks so much.
Manon Bolliger 17:43
If I don’t get you know, I don’t know if you’re familiar with homeopathic medicine. But it was one of the things I practiced. And there’s dream analysis is a big part of it. We don’t analyze it. As in we have no judgment about it. But we know what shows up in different of these portrays of people. So, they have different…these different desires and sleeping different positions and different dreams, right. So, what was I saying about homeopathy? Why was I bringing this up? I’m sorry, I just went on a track here.
Lucinda Sykes 18:20
Well, I’m interested in homeopathy we can discuss that.
Manon Bolliger 18:24
I’d love to know why still appear to have lost it in this moment. For some reason. I brought it up. Because what were what we were saying just before that it was the sleeplessness, the
Lucinda Sykes 18:39
I was remarking on the story that we will say,
Manon Bolliger 18:43
Oh, yes, that’s what it is. Thank you. Yeah. And the stories are also something that are looked at very much. Analyzing, you know, what is the best fit remedy? Yes. Some people say I, if I don’t get my seven and a half, or my eight-and-a-half-hour sleep function, or the more they worry about not getting their sleep, the worst they are.
Lucinda Sykes 19:11
Most. That is very true.
Manon Bolliger 19:14
Yeah, it’s interesting. And they’re all different states that we are able to, to tap into, or that we come across, you know, because of our, you know, our makeup.
Lucinda Sykes 19:27
That’s one of the challenges in teaching mindfulness, Manon is that people come to a mindfulness program with an agenda. Right? They are there for a reason. You know, I as the teacher, at that point, I was myself as the physician, I had an agenda to. I wanted to get results. I wanted everybody in the room to leave feeling better. So, we all had an agenda. But what we were doing was practicing mindfulness in which there is no agenda, right? There’s no judging there is no goal. It is simply to witness. So, this was always a point of tension in teaching MBSR all those years. And I had to use the word paradox repeatedly. In fact, that every the first session of every group, I would point to that paradox, because there’s no way around it.
Manon Bolliger 20:20
No, no. Yeah. But it’s like the elephant in the room.
Lucinda Sykes 20:25
Yes, yes. That we are wanting, we are wanting results. And yet, we’re just sitting by the fire waiting for them to show up.
Manon Bolliger 20:34
Right. Right. Interesting.
Lucinda Sykes 20:40
It’s there in sleep coaching, you see. In sleep coaching, because if you’re encouraging people to effort and try to get themselves to fall asleep, then you are actually disturbing the whole process.
Manon Bolliger 20:56
And also much of the techniques, you know, counting sheep and all of this.
Lucinda Sykes 21:03
Yes, yeah.
Manon Bolliger 21:04
What do you what is your thought on that?
Lucinda Sykes 21:08
Well, I take each woman as she has, you see, that’s great. I don’t need to diagnose any longer. So, to just take the unique person who is in front of me, and some women are best served, maybe by a focused meditation, and others are served by getting out of bed and doing some knitting. You just work with the woman as she is. Maybe there’s some of that in homeopathy, too. You listen.
Manon Bolliger 21:38
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is probably, you know, looking back at practice. I’m looking back at my practice, also, since I explained to you that I’m no longer in practice as well. And it’s, um, it’s that…the intervention or intervening, of what you mentioned, like a third, a third party. And I think that comes up, even if, you know, you’re not in the hospital setting, you’re in a clinic setting. Everything from all the things you must ask now. Which it wouldn’t be natural in the flow of a trusting relationship. There’s a lot that changes the ability for real connection to take place
Lucinda Sykes 22:39
Even the diagnostic label.
Manon Bolliger 22:42
Oh, completely. Yeah.
Lucinda Sykes 22:45
It’s coming from outside. It’s not there and your relationship with them?
Manon Bolliger 22:49
Exactly. I’m sure you’re doing the same, but it’s like I’m teaching, you know, I say, Well, you know, just bear with me. I know you got this diagnosis. And you’re very clear that you don’t want to take the appropriate solution, which is usually, you know, a drug solution to the problem. You want to look at it differently. So, let’s drop the diagnosis.
Lucinda Sykes 23:16
Yes, yes. Yes, yes. This is how I’m working in sleep coaching.
Manon Bolliger 23:20
Yeah. So, you’re asking, so what is it you’re actually experiencing?
Lucinda Sykes 23:25
Yes, yes, Manon. I started to immerse myself in some of the literature of the sociology of medicine. And looking at the medicalization of everyday life. Stress is now something that gets diagnosed and treated medically. And it’s a false intervention.
Manon Bolliger 23:48
I agree. Yeah, I agree. Now, what about with this, you know, I don’t know whether to add the element or not, but the last two years of this pandemic, do…and a lot of people in fear, you know. Do you have thoughts on that?
Lucinda Sykes 24:12
The fear?
Manon Bolliger 24:13
Yeah. I’m assuming that it’s going to affect some people in their sleep.
Lucinda Sykes 24:20
Yes, yes. I see. I have the maybe it’s an advantage. Because of all my young in training my background, is I’m listening for the unconscious. Because fear is primarily coming from the unconscious. Sure, we can know the tax time is coming and we want to gosh, where am I gonna get the money from? And so that’s the kind of conscious source of fear. But then there might even be an upwelling of, you know, remembering what happened to mom and dad when they couldn’t pay their taxes. That comes up from the unconscious. Yeah, so I find in the sleep coaching relationship, a lot of my task is to hold the container, so the non-conscious side gets to express itself too. And it can express itself, as you mentioned, as fear.
Manon Bolliger 25:08
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I was thinking too, with this fear that has come up of, you know, fear of contagion fear that our bodies don’t have immunity anymore, that we don’t actually have an immune system, you know, because the latest propaganda, or shall I call it official news says that we need an outside intervention for…that natural immunity is not something you can naturally count on. Right, which is a very strange concept, you know, to me, when, as a naturopath, we absolutely did everything to promote natural immunity. I’m not saying other things can’t be helpful. Of course, every case is different. But you would as a basis have the trust in your own body.
Lucinda Sykes 26:08
And I could offer as a backdrop, is the global climate catastrophe.
Manon Bolliger 26:16
Oh, yes. Yeah.
Lucinda Sykes 26:17
So that we cannot depend upon nature? It’s, an enormous psychological challenge. Yeah. And so…
Manon Bolliger 26:32
Both of these kind of fear, I will call it fear mongering, because it’s, we’re seeing one point of view, you know, we’re not seeing the whole story even on on weather modification. I can’t remember names, but there was a woman talking at the WEF on world on climate change. And she said, we own the science, we own the weather. Right. And, and it was like, wow, it’s like, this is, you know, very interesting how so much of this is the idea that humans, and especially certain humans, can control the magic of humanity and the, the parts they don’t know.
Lucinda Sykes 27:31
Oh, yes. And again, with my young in background, the young ins for a few generations have been predicting the resurgence of the feminine principle, and resurgence of nature. Edward Whitman, a homeopath, who’s also a young ins, I had the return of the Goddess, we called it and we are being humbled now by the forces of nature are, are coming in, perhaps because of our misbehavior. But you know, we are…the world is rebalancing. And we are almost helpless in the face of it. Because our own unconscious sabotaged us, we have known about the inevitability of climate change if we continue to burn the fossil fuels. We have known about that for decades, and we have been unable to save ourselves.
Manon Bolliger 28:27
Do you entertain the possibility that there’s even more that we don’t know. I mean, yeah, the environment. And that maybe the same kind of forces that play with the pharmaceutical industry, are also looking at whether in this kind of ownership with you know.
Lucinda Sykes 28:56
Yes, well, the pharmaceutical execs are probably in and just human beings, and if you sat there and analyze their dreams, and there’s not just be the usual banal human stuff. Some are there for greed. Others are there for power, and maybe one or two are there because hey, their families need the money. So, you know, I agree. There’s diabolical forces acting through them.
Manon Bolliger 29:23
I totally did not. I only started entertaining that, in this last year. It’s the first time I’ve ever you know, I’ve always looked at it, like, you know, we’re all human. We all have a history. We all have an unconscious record playing. And we’re all at different levels of consciousness and the ability to deal with stuff that happens
Lucinda Sykes 29:51
And that goes up and down to exactly
Manon Bolliger 29:53
And it changes and then you trigger and then we go
Lucinda Sykes 29:58
Back to the beginning
Manon Bolliger 29:59
That, but to see like, you know the word diabolical. It’s like, wow, something I had not. I didn’t have room for it in my thinking,
Lucinda Sykes 30:12
Yeah, I see it as the shadow side of humankind the dark forces that have been, you know, we haven’t been conscious of them. And we’ve brought this upon ourselves, because, you know, the climate scientists have been predicting it for a few decades. We knew. And we have remained passive in the face of it. It’s an enormous topic. And yeah, yeah. And it’s our own unconscious has done this to us. Have you noticed recently there was a, was at NASA had mounted some space endeavor to nudge an asteroid out of its out of its orbit? And they managed to do it, mounted all these rockets and so on and nudge the asteroid and thereby they reassured humanity that, hey, if an asteroid we’re coming towards the Earth, you know, NASA and friends could rise to the occasion and save the earth. And I’m watching this, it’s a kind of, you know, well, I won’t say what it is. But in the meantime, we know that the asteroid of climate change has been coming towards us for decades. We’ve done virtually nothing.
Manon Bolliger 31:39
It’ll be interesting to see how it all how it all plays out. But it’s a great…
Lucinda Sykes 31:46
It’s here in the unconscious of our patients, you see, yeah.
Manon Bolliger 31:51
But they’re exciting times, though they’re difficult, because a lot of people are questioning a lot of things, which I think many things are taken for granted. You know, including Earth, of course, and our relationship to nature and our relationship to ourselves and our relationship to others. And, yeah, all of that has…there’s a real chance here, I think in people questioning what they may not have questioned, you know, even thinking that, yes, the government was gonna do good. And, maybe it’s like, ultimately, we’re responsible for that. We have to take that in our own hands. You can’t, you know, it’s not about not trusting, but it’s about verifying all things and taking that radical self-responsibility for the choices one makes.
Lucinda Sykes 32:56
Yes, it’s quite exhausting, isn’t it?
Manon Bolliger 32:59
Completely. It can feel like that.
Lucinda Sykes 33:08
But we do our best.
Manon Bolliger 33:11
The other ways to go completely in trust, right. Completely in trust and who’s to know? Right?
Lucinda Sykes 33:24
It’s humbling. The healing sessions practiced, honestly, are very humbling. We mean the best and we equip ourselves to be the most effective service. But we are humbled by the problems that face us.
Manon Bolliger 33:45
Well, our time for conversations about life and practice has come to an end. But did you have any last comment to make? I know we’ll put how people can reach you and all that. But any last insight you want to share?
Lucinda Sykes 34:06
No, I really enjoyed our conversation. And as we were saying before, our formal interview began, I think there’s a lot of alignment between our viewpoints, we come from slightly different areas of the ballpark, but we’re meeting right in the diamond here.
Manon Bolliger 34:25
I totally agree.
Lucinda Sykes 34:26
Yeah, yeah. So very glad to have met with you today, Manon.
Manon Bolliger 34:30
Well, thanks very much Lucinda.
ENDING: 41:33
Thank you for joining us at the Healers Café with Manon Bolliger. Continue your healing journey by visiting TheHealersCafe.com and her website and discover how to listen to your body and reboot optimal health or DrManonBolliger.com/tips.
