meditation, because I mean, not much else had changed, except that you realize that you can’t go on like this, right? So, how does one meditate through the mindset that you, you had at the time, the checkout? Like, how, how, what was, you know, how well? No, let me not answer my own question. Go ahead.

 

Maggie Kelly  06:01

Well, I think it was less about meditating through the checkout time and more about bringing my nervous system down and and settling my physiology, because in those days I was on the phone with doctors and pharmacies. She had 16 different medications at five different pharmacies, and they’re all coming at different times, and clinic visits every three months, lung treatments twice a day, every day, 45 minutes each, and that’s when she’s well, and then I started tube feeding her, so here I am tube feeding her overnight. I essentially became a nurse.

 

Manon Bolliger  06:48

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  06:50

and inside of that, the oldest daughter was sort of put over to the side, because obviously

 

Manon Bolliger  06:57

the one

 

Maggie Kelly  06:58

who’s sickest, right?

 

Manon Bolliger  07:00

Well,

 

Maggie Kelly  07:01

so I think when I was meditating, I know actually when I first started meditating in subsequent years after, it was more about restoring my central nervous system to a ground state of being manageable, where I wasn’t hyperventilating through my life, always waiting for the next shoe to drop, constantly anxious and worrying,

 

Manon Bolliger  07:29

and

 

Maggie Kelly  07:30

just spinning, spinning. So, more about that, and that’s how I say to people that meditation saved my life, is because I’m not, you know, that was untenable, an untenable way to live. There’s no way.

 

Manon Bolliger  07:48

So, I mean, in a sense, I mean, correct me, but when you were drinking, it was a not the best way, but a way of seemingly to calm down that whole nervous system, so you could function, and you were in a sense replacing that with something healthy, and that would have permanent positive impacts.

 

Maggie Kelly  08:15

Yes, and you know, I’ve done a lot of work with Gabor Mate, who is an expert in trauma healing,

 

Manon Bolliger  08:21

yeah.

 

Maggie Kelly  08:22

And his biggest mantra is it’s never about the addiction, it’s about the pain underneath.

 

Manon Bolliger  08:29

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  08:30

so we could be out there addicted to shopping on Amazon or smoking pot or porn or whatever,

 

Manon Bolliger  08:38

anything,

 

Maggie Kelly  08:39

and it’s not about that, it’s about can you access the pain and actually heal, and honest, honestly, I did not see that until very recently that I actually ended up in, in a kind of spiritual bypass, so instead of drinking, I replaced it with meditation and spirituality, and then teaching, and then creating a center, and everything I do, and it took me until very recently I had a big, you know, big thing happen, and a really big meltdown, and I, you know, the support I had, the trauma therapy I had was were the people who, who introduced the idea of this spiritual bypassing I’ve been doing all these this time, and so going back to Gabor, it’s never about the addiction, whether it’s meditation or drinking or whatever.

 

Manon Bolliger  09:52

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  09:54

it was about the pain unprocessed and not certainly not integrated, right.

 

Manon Bolliger  10:00

Yeah,

 

Manon Bolliger  10:01

well, it’s courageous of you to admit that, because I mean it’s like a lifesaver, and yet it’s a big band aid, you know, and and it’s, it’s, you know, spiritual bypass is not that commonly talked about, you know, but it, I mean, I agree completely with Gabor Mate on that point, but you also, in your bio, you said we never grow unless or until we’re challenged, you know, and so that’s what made me think, you know, this, so yeah, so the challenge then is, I mean, you were coping and coping way better, but what actually opened everything up, where you could feel the pain and heal the

 

Maggie Kelly  10:50

pain. Oh gosh, that is what I’m writing my book about, and it’s a spiritual memoir, and it literally is about the last year of my life, having been the most painful, yet the most transformative, and the most healing of my life, and where I’ve been in a relationship with someone for about three years, and an avoidant type personality that the closer we got, the more fearful he became, and when the relationship shifted into a really beautiful connection, he disappeared out of thin air. No response, no text, no call, no explanation, and what that did was activate every last one of my abandonment wounds.

 

Manon Bolliger  11:48

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  11:48

from my childhood that I had never, honestly, I knew I had an inkling, right? I got a little abandonment thing going, you know, but I didn’t have this understanding until I was literally taken to my knees from this experience, and realized there was all of this unhealed childhood trauma that needed attention, and that me, as a healer, as a, you know, spiritual counselor, someone who meditates, someone who works out, someone who does hypnotherapy and acupuncture, and all these other modalities, there was nothing I had in my toolbox that was going to help me help myself.

 

Manon Bolliger  12:39

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  12:40

and I finally was literally at my final moments when I reached out and put myself into a trauma treatment center.

 

Manon Bolliger  12:51

Well,

 

Maggie Kelly  12:51

literally, wow,

 

Manon Bolliger  12:55

yeah, that’s yeah, it’s, I mean, when you’re seeing somebody else’s life, as you know, as is your daily practice, it’s a lot easier to see when you’re in it, and I know, yeah, it’s not you interviewing me, but I know what you mean, so, but it’s funny how, yeah, with your, your own child, it’s almost there you had the opportunity that life created for you to go through the abandonment issues, right?

 

Maggie Kelly  13:27

Yeah,

 

Manon Bolliger  13:28

there was resistance, right?

 

Maggie Kelly  13:30

Exactly on the back end of this, I have actually thanked that man,

 

Manon Bolliger  13:38

yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  13:40

guarding me,

 

Manon Bolliger  13:41

yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  13:42

and let him know that it was the greatest gift of my life,

 

Manon Bolliger  13:46

yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  13:46

and that there’s no words in any language that can convey my gratitude to him, because he literally saved my life in all different ways, physically saved my life, but emotionally completely healed. I mean, he didn’t do it, I did it, but

 

Manon Bolliger  14:05

of course, with

 

Maggie Kelly  14:06

the catalyst, right?

 

Manon Bolliger  14:07

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  14:08

yeah, and we do need to have a catalyst in our lives, some sort of event that shakes the rug. Most people, nobody wants to deal with pain, right? You’re about, you’re about to fall, you put your hands out, right? Nobody wants to fall on their face, and that’s no different than, you know, somebody wanting to let’s just dredge up all this complex childhood trauma, and let’s just deal with it. No, it’s not fun, and it’s very painful, very difficult, and it cannot be done lightly, and it needs a safe container where there’s tremendous compassion and. Expertise, right, because looking back, I was until this point a wounded healer, trying to heal,

 

Manon Bolliger  15:10

right, right,

 

Maggie Kelly  15:11

right now on this side I am a much more effective and profound healer as a result of what I’ve just experienced,

 

Manon Bolliger  15:23

yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  15:24

so the healing I have to give is is far and away different than anything I’ve ever

 

Manon Bolliger  15:32

done before,

 

Maggie Kelly  15:33

because it’s our depth that wasn’t there,

 

Manon Bolliger  15:36

right, but now you’re going to attract the people who are ready for that, you know, it’s like before, you might have attracted people that needed, you know, a simple solution, just a change, you know. So I do think, you know, at least I’ve chosen to look at my life as effective all the time, just for different people,

 

Maggie Kelly  15:58

right?

 

Manon Bolliger  16:00

Yeah, you know, as I do my own deeper work and releases of that, then I can, yeah, now I feel like I’m, I’m really good now and open to the world, you know.

 

Maggie Kelly  16:16

Well, I looked at, you know, Satsang House in 10 years of my business, and all you know, I went from the meditation to then becoming a spiritual counselor,

 

Manon Bolliger  16:29

and then

 

Maggie Kelly  16:30

moved into the shamanic medicine, medicine healing more recently, and I look at that progression, and sure we can talk about it as spiritual bypassing, but on the flip side of that, I am 100% certain that if I had not had that foundation underneath me, I may not today,

 

Manon Bolliger  16:56

yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly, I mean, it

 

Maggie Kelly  16:59

saved my life, whether it was a bypass or not, to get me there doesn’t matter, right?

 

Manon Bolliger  17:05

No, I think so. I mean, that’s the idea of the journey, you know. I think we’re given a journey that is for us, you know. It’s like, and you can’t, I mean, you might go faster, but you, you’ve got to have something that, in my mind, too, kind of propels you, or or something that you choose to notice, or that you can’t help but notice, like in your case, that you know what can you do without your, you’re absolutely, you know, shocked by it, so you’re going to go to the next level, right.

 

Maggie Kelly  17:40

Well, that’s part of why meditation is so profound, because literally all we’re doing in meditation is training ourselves to notice,

 

Manon Bolliger  17:50

right?

 

Maggie Kelly  17:50

We’re strengthening our noticing muscles. I’m going to notice when my thoughts want to hijack me and take me off, and I’m going to keep bringing myself back, whether it’s through breath or mantra, whatever it is, whatever modality meditation you use doesn’t matter, it’s all the same same thing, and it’s that training in noticing that is the part where you’re I always tell my students, look, we’re in formal meditation practice. Here, the real meditation is out there in the world. You’re interacting with others, that’s when you’re going to know if your practice is working, because that’s when you’re going to notice how you interact with the grocery store clerk, how you interact with your best friend, how you resolve your differences, whether you even bother to repair, you know, and that’s the noticing that matters right now, and that’s all the practice in really

 

Manon Bolliger  18:53

exactly. Yeah, so how.. how has it.. I mean, it’s very new and all that, but how, or has it changed your relationship to your daughter, or or anything at this point? And how old is she now?

 

Maggie Kelly  19:11

So, I have two daughters. I have one that’s 28 and the one with cystic fibrosis is 24

 

Manon Bolliger  19:17

Okay,

 

Maggie Kelly  19:18

and she and I are extremely close, which makes sense. I’ve been her caregiver, her nurse, all of it in and out of the hospital with her for

 

Manon Bolliger  19:28

years. Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  19:29

the relationship with the older one is actually quite strained, because by all intents and purposes she inherited my own abandonment trauma, right? The intergenerational trauma wound is hers now, unfortunately, and for the past two years, she and I have not even spoken by her choice, not mine.

 

Manon Bolliger  19:52

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  19:52

she has no idea the healing I’ve been through and what I’ve been through since she has not spoken to me, so. She has no idea where I am, and that’s okay. She’ll get there when she gets there, if she gets there, and I just let go

 

Manon Bolliger  20:10

mhmhm

 

Maggie Kelly  20:10

of that outcome. It’s unfortunate, but I completely understand why she would feel abandoned in her own right by me for sure, because yeah, we only have a certain amount of bandwidth that excuse me, accountable, and I am responsible for not having given her what she needed when she needed it. I, and I have apologized and tried to make amends for that.

 

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Manon Bolliger  21:51

but it is, it does point to, hey, Mom is human too, yeah, right, but I think it takes time, like you know, if I look in my own situation, there’s certainly times of abandonment on my part, and I was also dealing, you know, with stage four cancer, that can be, it can be a little all-encompassing, you know, so just a tiny bit, anyway. But, um, you know, it’s like it’s things still impact and affect, you know, and and you’re still the one who did it, you’re still responsible for it, you know, and it’s only really when they kind of go through, really, like, you know, forgiven, I have been, but to really get that, if, if they were in the same role, could they have done anything much better or different, or you know, and then it’s like back to humanity, I mean, there’s only so much bandwidth, you know, like what else can you do, right? And so it’s, I think, when we remove that, the blame and all that stuff, when, when they are no longer victims, which, you know, I think we’re there now. You know, my youngest is 28 so 27 now, sorry, eight. Anyway, I can’t remember. she just had her birthday now, much.. I’m not sure, but you know, on the other, they’re older, right? So it’s.. it’s interesting, you know, it’s.. there’s a point in which it.. it’s everyone’s journey, and we choose how. how much of that journey we’re going to fault others for, rather than just learn from, and go, hmm, yikes, that must have been weird, or tough, or hard, or, you know,

 

Maggie Kelly  23:56

right, and I think you know that points to self compassion, because without self compassion it’s impossible to have compassion for someone else,

 

Manon Bolliger  24:06

exactly.

 

Maggie Kelly  24:07

And very few of us, especially women, give ourselves a break and define compassion for others when we’re so busy beating ourselves up.

 

Manon Bolliger  24:20

Yeah, yeah, and that’s no example, because if they see you beat yourself up, where are they going to learn it from? It has to be a full new experience, but it could just come from you, like going, gee, how, how can you be loving and love yourself, and yet you were such a, you know, abandoner, or you were whatever you know, and it’s like, well, because you have to get through to the other side of it, you know,

 

Maggie Kelly  24:46

yeah,

 

Manon Bolliger  24:46

and, and I think that’s a really good lesson, you know, when we can be an example as well of what we’ve learned,

 

Maggie Kelly  24:55

for sure, absolutely, absolutely,

 

Manon Bolliger  24:59

and

 

Maggie Kelly  24:59

it shows. Up in a myriad of different ways that you wouldn’t expect, you know, just in conversation and passing moments, and one simple interaction. I mean, I see the huge change in me since a year ago, because all the healing that I’ve done, and it’s,

 

Manon Bolliger  25:21

yeah, and

 

Maggie Kelly  25:22

writing a book about it, just, you know, brings it all up, whatever, still, you know, there’s little edges to some of that trauma that’s still there, whatever that is, then it shows up again, like, oh, there’s still a little bit of charge on that one. I think I need to work a little more here. I need to not just process but integrate, and so there are moments during the writing where I’ve said I gotta put this over here so I can process and integrate the process of writing, though, itself has been quite an integration.

 

Manon Bolliger  26:05

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, you’re.. it’s hard to not turn every stone eventually. Yeah, you were saying shamanic healing was five. five DMO, what, what, what type, or music, or

 

Maggie Kelly  26:30

I do not do plant medicine ceremony, I do illuminations. I work with the chakra system and do illuminations.

 

Manon Bolliger  26:41

Okay,

 

Maggie Kelly  26:42

um, clear the energy body. I do journeying to the past. I do soul retrievals, extractions of negative energies. I do death rites, so if you know to be able to clear in chakras and send you to the East, and I do cord cuttings, so all of the very ancient practices I’m part of the lineage of Machu Picchu, so the Karen tradition.

 

Manon Bolliger  27:11

Okay,

 

Maggie Kelly  27:12

I also do fire ceremony, so each shaman group, I guess, depending on the region and depending on the lineage uses a particular element in their healing, so some might use water, some might use wind. My lineage uses fire,

 

Manon Bolliger  27:35

so

 

Maggie Kelly  27:35

fire ceremony as rapid transformation, which is one of my favorite things to do. In fact, we have a fire, we’re always at a full moon, so we have one Saturday. So that’s the work that I do is energetic healing. So I’ll pretty much start by diagnosing your chakras and going.

 

Manon Bolliger  28:01

1. interesting, good. Can you expand a little bit more on that, just for people who don’t? I haven’t. I’ve never done a ceremony of that type, but so what. Let’s talk about the chakra one and the fire involved in that end, and because you said you, it was, it was that it was that those ceremonies, right, that really brought you, sorry, that really brought you to that deeper seeing or understanding of what.

 

Maggie Kelly  28:40

Yes, I went down. I traveled to Chile. Alberto Villongo, who you mentioned in the intro, is a Cuban American shaman who has brought the Caro tradition lineage of shamanism to the United States. For the most part, he has a retreat center down in Chile, where he brings shamans from Machu Picchu to train other people in their practices, and these are ancient practices from way back before the conquistadors.

 

Manon Bolliger  29:14

Yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  29:14

and just like the, you know, burning the witches in Massachusetts, if at the time of the Compista doors, they arrived on shore, and they found shamans, they probably would have killed all the shamans. So, when the shamans of Machu Picchu knew, well, they weren’t of Machu Picchu then, but the Caro tradition shamans were originally down by the coast, but the Coquis Coquistadores came, and they knew they were in danger, so they ran up into the Andes, and that’s how Machu Picchu was built, and the reason built.

 

Manon Bolliger  29:55

Okay,

 

Maggie Kelly  29:55

and that’s where all the ancient healing practices,

 

Manon Bolliger  29:59

yeah.

 

Maggie Kelly  30:00

Place was in Machu Picchu up in the Andes, and so these shamans that Alberto uses come from Machu Picchu down to his retreat center in Chile to train people like me to in those practices, and so I spent a month down there in and we did fire ceremony every day for 30 days and I learned all these ancient practices and the rites and rituals and all kinds of beautiful, beautiful healing practices, and shamanism uses the medicine wheel, and they use the four directions, so you start with the South. In the South direction, the archetype is the serpent, and the reason she is the serpent and the archetype of the South, and where you begin is because the serpent sheds her skin. So, the work of the South is for us to shed all these old stories that no longer serves. Then we go to the West, and the archetype of the West is the jaguar, and the reason it’s the Jaguars, the Jaguar can see six to seven times better than human beings in the dark. The work, the West is the dark work, the shadow, the shadow sides of us want to confront, and once done the work of the serpent and the jaguar, then we moved into the north, and the archetype of the north is the hummingbird, and it is the hummingbird, because after we’ve been slithering on our bellies, and then we’re stealth in the dark, we’re now starting to take flight, we’ve released some of that fast, and we’re starting to take flight. Well, hummingbird can fly to Canada and South America on one flight, and all they’re looking for is the nectar of life.  So, the work of the North is ancestral. We start to look at our ancestrals, our grandparents, all of that, but also, where’s the beauty of life now that I’ve gotten rid of some of this past? What’s where’s the beauty?

 

Maggie Kelly  32:08

And look for the beauty, then the work of the East is the eagle or the condor, and the work of that direction is now that you’ve done all that other work, you’re flying high above the mountain tops like an eagle, and you’re looking at the world from a macroscopic point of view, instead of what’s in it for me, and it’s all about me. How can I be of service to the world, and why am I even here? That’s a very rudimentary way to describe the most

 

Manon Bolliger  32:39

Yay that’s great.

 

Maggie Kelly  32:40

of the four directions, and so that’s a lot of the work that I did for myself, and then became part of the lineage, and then inside of the lineage, then I, they, I call on them to work through me to you,

 

Manon Bolliger  32:59

right. Right.

 

Maggie Kelly  33:00

So, in chakra system that you asked about, that’s primarily an illumination, and what that looks like is I will help put you into a trance using pressure points behind your head, and when I know that you’re in a sort of trans state, then I know you’re a little more suggestible, just like a hypnotherapist would do that, moving you into a gamma brainwave state, and once I know that, then I have you look around for energy. Our energetic body is about six to eight inches off of our physical body. I liken it to like a plate glass window, and any trauma or event that may have happened to you as you were growing up is sort of like a wet mud clod from that window, and it sticks on our energetic body, and if we don’t, that trauma or that experience, and if we don’t clean the window, so to speak, that will move and manifest into our physical body as disease, heart disease, or cancer, or you know, thyroid issues, or bone issues, depending on which chakra is affected, so I diagnose the chakras and we always work from the bottom up. The first chakra being the base of your spine, we work from the chakra closest to Mother Earth. Then we move up, because the higher you go, the closer you are to your spiritual self.

 

Manon Bolliger  34:38

Yeah, the

 

Maggie Kelly  34:39

lower three are usually the ones that are tripped up for most of us, because they’re all about our will, our survival, our primal instincts, our, you know, all of our adrenal glands, each chakra is managed by a particular. Organ in your body, it also has a particular element that is associated with it, like wind, fire, water, air, and each one has an age. So, for instance, the first DACRA, anything that may have happened to you between the ages of zero and seven years old retains its energy in the first chakra.

 

Manon Bolliger  35:27

Okay, then

 

Maggie Kelly  35:28

it’s seven to 1414, to 2121 to 2828 to 35 and so on. So we have to, we have to keep those bottom three clear, so we can get to the heart chakra, which is fourth chakra, the center of our energetic system. If we don’t pass, get to the heart chakra, we can never get to our center of creativity, our psychic center, our spiritual center. So primarily I work with the bottom three, because that’s just how we are as American, and those are usually the ones that are stuck, or go, the pendulum will go backwards, or not even move when I’m back.

 

Maggie Kelly  36:14

So I will open that one, that chakra up, I will illuminate it, you will set an intention for that chakra. I’ll close it back up, move energy down and out through back to back to Mother Earth. That’s an illumination process.

 

Manon Bolliger  36:36

Amazing. Yeah, well, sounds.. um, that sounds great. I mean, you know, what a wonderful thing to have such a variety of insights and tools, you know, to be able to well, and also for you to actually have grown through it on top of that even more. That’s very interesting. Yeah, yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  36:58

sometimes I feel, you know, I have no idea where I got the sense of the shamanic piece. I do remember reading a book and hearing about Alberto Center, and then looking it up, and then right on the screen it said,

 

Maggie Kelly  37:17

When spirit calls answer, oh my god, I guess I gotta go, but that’s how it works, right? It is

 

Manon Bolliger  37:27

how it works. Yeah, I don’t know if you noticed lights when we were talking. That’s kind of okay. Very interesting affirmation.

 

Manon Bolliger  37:41

Yeah, affirmations,

 

Maggie Kelly  37:42

I, you know,

 

Manon Bolliger  37:42

it’s up to us to see it or not see it, right?

 

Maggie Kelly  37:45

That’s right, that’s right.

 

Manon Bolliger  37:47

Anyway, so, and that’s it, right? I mean, yeah, guts are not paying any attention to our intuitive voice,

 

Manon Bolliger  37:56

right?

 

Maggie Kelly  37:56

Your intuitive voice is right every single time I’ve had my daughter ask me questions, she’s starting her business, and she asked me questions about the lease, and etc, and I, instead of answering, just say, What does your gut tell you, because that’s who you should be listening to, not me,

 

Manon Bolliger  38:21

yeah,

 

Maggie Kelly  38:23

it’s always right. If you feel like something is off, something’s off, right?

 

Manon Bolliger  38:30

Yeah, that’s that’s certainly been one of my biggest, like, less, not lessons I haven’t learned yet, you know? Like, that’s the truth. It’s like I’ve come to the distinction between instinct and intuition. I think those are different. I know where they’re coming from, so instinct being much more primordial, and you know, like fight-flight, knowing, oh, I need to move from this street, or I.. I’m not gonna get.. I’m gonna lock the door before I get out of this garage, or whatever the story might be, that would be an instinct, but an intuition comes differently to me, you know, and. and it’s funny, it’s like the levels, a lot of the work I did with Gabor Mate actually was on intuition for about 10 years, I kept needing to understand that deeper and deeper, and I would say that at this stage I’m just beginning again, like it feels.. I felt like I got this, and then it’s nope. We gotta go deeper anyway, but I think it’s easy for us to second guess ourselves,

 

Manon Bolliger  39:54

right?

 

Maggie Kelly  39:55

Question our own thoughts.

 

Manon Bolliger  39:58

Yeah. Oh yeah.

 

Maggie Kelly  40:00

Yes, it’s, it’s best if we don’t.

 

Manon Bolliger  40:03

Well, it gets messy, right? Or if you use a pendulum, or you use something that you say that you imbue with power, like, or that you’re where you’re coming from isn’t exactly as clear as clean can be, because you really want to know the answer. If there’s attachment, like the moment there’s anything else, it’s.. it’s not a reading,

 

Maggie Kelly  40:31

right?

 

Manon Bolliger  40:32

Right. And they

 

Maggie Kelly  40:33

bring up a really good point: is the attachment

 

Manon Bolliger  40:36

right?

 

Maggie Kelly  40:38

Because when we have the attachment to the outcome, it’s never going to happen,

 

Manon Bolliger  40:42

and then you’re not reading your intuition,

 

Maggie Kelly  40:45

right? Right. And just having this conversation with someone I was teaching meditation with this morning about, you know, being able to just plant the seed and let go.

 

Manon Bolliger  40:58

Yep, yep,

 

Maggie Kelly  40:59

I don’t – none of us go out there and plant flowers, and go out every day, and dig it up, and see if it’s growing. See, it is sprouting right, and if we do that, we’re interfering.

 

Manon Bolliger  41:10

Yep,

 

Maggie Kelly  41:11

we have to be able to just plant the seed and water it as best we can, and back off, and trust that the universe has your back. The universe is taking care of all of it. It’s the grand orchestrator,

 

Manon Bolliger  41:28

exactly.

 

Maggie Kelly  41:29

And gratitude is, you know, it’s the only place we can stand on a daily basis with any fundamental stability and gratitude for the things we don’t have that we think we need or want, it’s gratitude for all that we do have. Yep, you know, and even gratitude for the difficult times.

 

Manon Bolliger  41:53

Yep. Well, that’s, you know, certainly in house, that’s learning to be grateful for, you know, this disease is, it’s quite a, quite a step, but Maggie, we are so past our time, but like we could easily have a second conversation, yeah, but yeah, I’ll, I’ll keep it at, you know, a little over half an hour, because that’s what people are used to, but Thea, thank you so much for sharing, and if you do want to come back again, maybe when you get your book, or if you want to talk about the different elements, like we talked a bit about fire, but that would be, you know,

 

Maggie Kelly  42:38

happy to come back, has been a delight. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

 

Manon Bolliger  42:43

All right, thank you.

 

ENDING: 

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