process that I and everybody else deserve to find a home that is suitable for them, where they can live with dignity and sovereignty and carry out activities that make their lives worth living. So I I think, in some sense, as I’m saying all of this, then I’m realizing it’s not that clear to me what I’m actually afraid of, right? Any move is reversible. I can leave the island if I don’t like it. And the truth is, it’s. It’s possible you have a way more crystallized, which is we are afraid of change.

Manon Bolliger  05:07

Yeah. Well, there’s a lot of effort that goes with making changes too, right? And and I think there is that you know general self preservation, right? I mean, you know, I know you guys. For it’s really important to have a very balanced life. You do what I suggest, not what I do. You go, you go scuba diving, mountain climbing, skiing, Walking, hiking, you know, adventuring, you know, and you eat healthy. You grow vegetables. That part I do, okay. But you know, there’s parts like on the physicality part that are a bit lacking on my side. But you know, you you take time off, and you you work, and you you know you do this, so you have this cohesive life. And you know, to think of bringing that somewhere else, parts make sense. The other parts are, you know, it’s like it’s putting it. It it it’s like um, not having the container, having all the parts, but not the container, and then seeing how how it fits, you know, in the in the new space, you know, generally right, and how people respond, and whether you know, I would say whether you care, you know, because that’s the other thing. Some people will be fine, and some people will have their own ideas about it, right? So, I think where the problem comes is when you have, you know, a type of character which we’re seeing more and more, but like a sort of bureaucratic, regulation-oriented. you know, whatever that that type of where they feel that they they gain their power over limiting other people’s choices, you know.

Sagan  07:16

Yeah,

Manon Bolliger  07:16

I think that’s where you know that’s a whole other issue. But I do think that we are moving. I mean, you know, they say Aquarius is a energetically, planetarily, whatever. You know, I’m not no good with astrology, but I do follow tiny things like that to go. Okay, there’s hope that we’re not going down the wrong path. We’re in fact going. We we’ve kind of seen the almost the limit of this type of overreach and interference and demeaning of the true integrity and power of people. We’re almost done because more people, more and more people that see this and go, gee, look! I mean, look what happens if we don’t actually, you know, create a value container for what we want to offer, right?

Sagan  08:14

Yeah,

Manon Bolliger  08:16

yeah, you know. So,

Sagan  08:17

yeah, no, absolutely, and and I think you know a big part that I’m seeing too in in I think my my recent process is just this sense of you can call it pride. The pride has different connotations, but there’s a sense of fully owning all parts of myself and oneself, you know, without hiding, without shame, without saying, “Oh, you know, this part is not acceptable here, so I’m going to diminish it,” but really, sort of stepping into, sort of calling all of those pieces that may have been exiled, that may have been judged, and saying, “Okay, no, they they have a they have a rightful place in in myself and in in my life,

Manon Bolliger  09:04

right? And they may have served an absolute purpose at one point, right? And now they’re sort of like little shadows, but they’re but they need to be absolutely integrated, like as in accept it, you know. And again, this is to do with healing. You know, and that’s you know that’s one of the fundamental things in in in healing is to be to be whole.

Sagan  09:34

Yeah,

Manon Bolliger  09:35

and you know, like I used to call this in my book, I call it radical responsibility, and that sounds like oh my gosh, you know, we don’t need that, but yes, we do. Actually, it comes with complete freedom.

Helena Zhu  09:53

Wow,

Manon Bolliger  09:55

you know, if you can be radically responsible for. The things that you absolutely intend and believe in, and the things that you you can admit that maybe that was really shitty of you, or that was a mistake in hindsight, or whatever it is. But you’re radically responsible for. You’re not the victim of you know living in this world with your eyes closed. You chose to close your eyes, or you chose to defer the pain rather than actually experience

Sagan  10:37

it.

Manon Bolliger  10:37

You know, I think that’s all part of the the healing journey like we can’t go wrong if we’re if we’re willing to be wrong and take responsibility at it like you know I don’t mean we try and be wrong but to to know that that is part of the learning. Sometimes we make mistakes. It just is the way it is. You know, we didn’t necessarily intend to have that path, but it it may be the path that gee we’re we’re on. And how did we get there? You know, and and those are all kind of things we need to experience.

Sagan  11:23

Yeah. Yeah, and maybe one, you know, I I love this direction we’re going, and and maybe one one piece that’s kind of showing up for me as we’re talking about this is also kind of these, you know, we call them triggers or these these points of right, you know, reactivity into unconsciousness, and I think that’s often you know as we’re following this stream, you know, yeah, and to have these places where all of a sudden we have these automatic reactions because there’s something, there’s some charge there that’s that’s kind of like all pent up, and it kind of throws the system out of balance. So I guess where I’m also seeing a place in healing is as we move through this, you know, we we create these spaces to diffuse that energy or to, you know, and perhaps transform it into something else that’s more powerful, but not to have these kind of landmines that sort of take us off of our of our consciousness.

Manon Bolliger  12:23

Yeah, no, I I completely agree. I mean, these triggers are usually unresolved, right? And and they are part of our unconscious unless we make them conscious, you know. And and they’re often they often have very little to do with the current trigger. You know, the pain was significantly worse. You know, 20 or 30 years ago. You know, and so you’re overacting or overreacting to the person who’s just given you the favor of pointing out that you have a trigger. Yes,

Helena Zhu  13:05

and and I wonder whether everything is here is to help each of us to grow.

Manon Bolliger  13:12

Yeah, I well, that’s my view feeling exactly. I think so. I I see it very much that way. You know, it’s I I would agree, and and you can. It’s a way to look at the world. It’s like you know, I Byron Katie was sharing this. It’s too long a story. I’m not going to go into it. But the end result of it is to be grateful for What

Speaker 1  13:41

is

Manon Bolliger  13:42

so? You know, thank you, ah, thank you for sharing that with me. You know, and that’s like that’s that trigger that you feel like you know you could just shove the person against the wall, and then it’s like no, no, no, no! Thank you for sharing that. I am so triggered. Thank you very much. No, but you know that would be like, and then I mean, if you could say thank you, it it’s even. I mean, but you know, people would think you’re half crazy or you’re mocking them, right? So you know, you might have to do the thank you inside. Okay, work work to be worked on. Thank you for bringing it up, and you know, yeah. And the other thing I think a big big misunderstanding is that an emotion, and I don’t want to sound too cliche on this, but is it’s a 92nd event when lived without controlling

Sagan  14:53

it? Right, right,

Manon Bolliger  14:55

right. So what is 92nd out of your life? It’s nothing, you know, and and you know, I mean, I I think as a as a mother, I’m you know, I’m sure I said, okay, oof, enough of this tantrum, and you know, you’re sitting in your corner, you know, I’m just trying to think like and think about this or whatever things that probably were not even possible for kids to do, like God knows, but but you know it’s like okay that sounds good to me, but in a sense it’s really like let it out 90 seconds. There’s nothing left after that.

Helena Zhu  15:35

Yes.

Sagan  15:36

Yeah. Yeah. No. And I’m reminded of you know I’m reminded of some of our clients who, you know, and it’s especially men because I think men are often taught to be very contained.

Manon Bolliger  15:48

Yeah.

Sagan  15:49

And yeah, I’m thinking of some of our clients who haven’t cried in decades.

Manon Bolliger  15:55

Right.

Sagan  15:56

And it’s a, I mean, you know, I’m, and seeing what can come out with that permission, both the permission of the container, the space, but also what the medicine allows and opens up, you know, and the intention brought into it to allow those tears to flow for the first time in decades. And it’s not that there wasn’t that there weren’t things to grieve over those decades, but there was something that a belief or a certain pattern, something automatic that whenever, whenever the you know the state was going in that direction, there was something that was like, okay, you know, this is not this is not safe to experience. We’re going to redirect. We’re going to distract, yeah, whatever it is. Open the fridge, you know, self soothe, but not actually feel that. Yeah, I think it’s just so. Yeah, it’s, and I think you’re entirely right that it’s when you’re actually allowing yourself to go into it, it’s, it’s never as bad, like anywhere near as bad. In fact, it can be a beautiful thing to allow ourselves to experience the grief that we haven’t allowed ourselves to feel.

Manon Bolliger  17:02

Manon Bolliger here, and I want to thank you for taking actionable steps towards engaging your healing journey and helping others discover their path by watching, sharing, subscribing, and reviewing these podcasts. Every review and share helps spread the word on these different perspectives and choices and options for healing. And to thank you, I’d like to invite you to sign up to my free seven sequence email tips on health and healing for everyday life. And you can go to healerscafe.com tips. Thanks so much. Or whatever

Sagan  17:47

it happens to be.

Manon Bolliger  17:49

Yeah, yeah. And then there’s some emotions that, for whatever upbringing reasons, likely were, you know, more comfortable with.

Sagan  18:01

Yeah.

Manon Bolliger  18:01

Than others, you know, like you know, sadness. That’s easy for me, you know. Right, right. I can, I can really do that one, you know. But, but, but anger. It’s like, oof, that short circuits very quickly goes into sadness so quickly. It’s like I, you know, and I wonder. I’ve done work on this, you know. Have I just never been angry enough? Have I not had 90 seconds of anger? You know, like, you know, or or is it suppressed? Maybe it’s not. You know, like maybe you know some people. That’s not how they see the world, or you know, like it’s it’s hard to you know. I’ve been you know people telling me this, not just my experience, but it’s like you know, it’s interesting. You know, and it could be just what we were allowed to say or not, and therefore, you know. Now, do you have to go hitting pillows and screaming to get that out of you? No, because it’s never going to come out that way. It has to be more genuine, right? Like it, you know, it has to be from within. But it’s it’s interesting. Not every emotion is easy to fully experience, and also as kids, you know, to it really helps if the parents can try and identify this. Oh, you’re you’re frustrated, ramming

Helena Zhu  19:38

emotion, yeah,

Manon Bolliger  19:40

or your, you know, giving it a name so that then the kid can go, yeah, I’m. This is what I feel, you know, until they figure out it’s a variance of that, you know, because I’m guessing right or projecting. Yeah,

Helena Zhu  19:57

I’m also curious whether our. Different relationships to emotions is also what allows all of us to be a sustainable and wholesome collective. Because as Sega and I are navigating challenges of resetting up our practice lives, we’ve been connecting with a lot of colleagues, our journeyers, our communities, our friends, and I’m realizing just observing ourselves and observing others, and there’s a lot of conversation. Oh yeah, if I were in this situation, I would respond this way too, or you know, just but but noticing there’s a diversity in how everyone will naturally respond, and all of them are helpful and valid in different circumstances, and it could be very suitable for that person. And even between Seke and I, I think we’ve learned a lot from other people’s diversity in their relationship to say anger or grief in our situation, or even in joy for the optimism of the future, and we’ve learned from all of these individuals who have the gifts of connecting to specific emotions in their own way.

Manon Bolliger  21:17

No, no, for sure, and we’re different, right? That’s the you know we don’t all have to have the same process, right? I’m sure you know where people are journeying; they’re all having their own, right? You know, yeah.

Helena Zhu  21:32

But I’m also hearing your value, and I think our shared value that part of the work of personal healing and helping others to heal is giving permission for all the emotions.

Manon Bolliger  21:45

For sure, for sure, for sure. Yeah, and and non judgment. That’s the other one. I think that’s the yeah one of the biggest ones, at least. You know, when I was in a teaching position for the naturopathic college too, you know, is to see the the young practitioners actually having judgment, not not an internal like, you know, as one does, but really a judgment, you know, yeah, and it’s like, oh wow, where does you know that has to be dealt with in healing? Can’t just be pretending you’re gone, you know, like you know who that just doesn’t feel right, you know. We’re just we’re all we’re all people, right?

Sagan  22:38

Yeah,

Manon Bolliger  22:39

Earthlings.

Sagan  22:40

Yeah, no, and I think you know. Yeah, I think that’s such a. Yeah, I really appreciate you raising that that value, and I think. Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s. I think it’s so important, and I I also think like when. And there’s different ways to approach it, but you know, I think the way we we look at it is that it’s respecting each person’s own sovereignty, each person’s own their own truth of themselves. So we really try to avoid, you know, say coming in and saying, “Oh, you look like you ever pressed anger, you should work on your anger, right? That’s that’s not our business. No, no,

Manon Bolliger  23:24

exactly. You know, it’s

Sagan  23:26

it’s really it’s really trusting that they are their own authority on what they need to work on next and what’s true for them. Yeah, and that’s really the only way is by supporting that that internal process for themselves. At least that’s the only way that we found that yeah that that works. And we can we we’re loving we’re supportive we’re you know we’re accepting yeah. But you’re not superior. Yeah, but ultimately yeah we’re we’re we’re we’re supporting what they already are wanting to do inside of yeah

Manon Bolliger  24:02

yeah yeah no and I think you know it’s like even if that ends up being the long way around it that is the way that they must take you know like if they decide later that you know I can see that maybe I should have blah blah blah. You know, like these are all the steps that you you take. You know, it’s like Byron Katie says that you know if you’re not in your business, whose business are you in? You know, it’s like I always look at that and go right. You know, like let’s be honest here. You know, Yeah. Okay. Well, I I think I’m just thinking: is there anything else that you feel that should be brought out or discussed, or a point that we haven’t really looked at, or that you just would like to leave people with? On your journey here,

Sagan  25:03

I think there’s one thing that we haven’t touched on, and it’s a really, you know, when we we call our group work self contact retreat, and the self in that is a really interesting concept. It’s not the ego. I mean, we we named it in a large way, sort of inspired by the language of internal family systems, which talks about this this core this core self that has compassion, that has all of these these qualities of presence, and but I think you know I mean that’s just one word for it. But there is this experience that a lot of people have in in the medicine of connecting with they might call it their higher self. They might call it their realizing who they really are. They might call it, you know, discovering their roots, but this sense that you know they’re not as limited and small as they thought they were, but they’re actually this this grand expression of the universe, and that they’re completely a part of it, and that you’ve got nothing to prove but that they are, that they are actually much bigger than than they thought they were, and and I think this is a this can be a really big insight for a lot of people that that they’re not that they’re not small, that they actually fully belong here.

Manon Bolliger  26:46

Yeah, is that when the term God molecule is that a part of that idea in a in a conceptual way that you know we’re we’re we’re part of a of a bigger whole, not not a religious. And I’m not giving any Satanist any power here. Just you know meaning from that you know connection part, right?

Sagan  27:21

Yeah. Yeah,

Helena Zhu  27:21

we didn’t come up with that nickname, but we resonate with that nickname. And and to also yeah, to go off what Sagan said to recognize that we’re powerful beings.

Manon Bolliger  27:34

Yeah, it’s funny. There’s a lot of stuff now on you know social media and articles and all that that talk about tying in you know the end of big periods of time and the beginning of new ones a bit like I was saying with Aquarius but this goes to Indian traditions to all kinds I’m not so. I don’t want to talk about it in details because I don’t know the names. I mean, it’s one of the things I keep forgetting. But I can see the movement, and what they say about this period is that we are going to become in tune with our greatness.

Helena Zhu  28:19

Wow! Wow!

Manon Bolliger  28:21

Yeah, so it’s very, very timely that you know that this is really where you guys are, where you guys are. Yes.

Helena Zhu  28:35

No, I think you’re right. I think you know this feels our current stage feels a little foreign. Last time we had a similar state was five years ago before we started our practice, and that’s another story. But I I think you remember the states that we were in. I think back then we gave a lot of power to academia, which is very familial and historical for both of us, we come from very highly educated families and ourselves. So this is also helping me recognize that maybe these experiences where we need to give more power to ourselves and less powers to authorities, which I think are also very historical stories for both of us. Yeah, yeah.

Manon Bolliger  29:24

No, I was actually just saying something similar to Sagan over, you know, Thanksgiving, and it’s like the courage that you guys had given your backgrounds to step away from again a an educational paradigm that that is very demeaning to humans. I forget what they call it. Again, it’s got a some cultural. I forget what it’s called. You guys might remember, but I don’t know the name. Anyway, it’s a way of educating where you, yeah, you you basically it’s like it’s not just anti-human; it’s anti-white, it’s anti-Europe culture, it’s anti-it was more anti than it is pro anything, you know, which is, you know, I don’t know how to explain it more, but, but the thing is, you know, you’re you’re in this, you’re getting a degree. Meanwhile, they’re stripping you or trying to strip you of all the parts that are that are genuinely your, your offering, you know, and you know, and and people will do that. I mean, still see it, you know. You give up your values, your oath to do no harm. Like you know, history repeats itself, right? It’s we’re full of that, and you know, to to step away and go, gosh, I don’t know the next step, you know, but I know the next step I’ll take. I don’t know what it’ll mean, where it’ll go, just to be able to say no to something that felt destructive, and and I remember you you were both you know you were both in tears. You were really absolutely affected by this overreach and this horrible experience. And then look at look what happened, you

Sagan  31:40

know.

Manon Bolliger  31:40

It’s like wow, you know, you you took it on and dealt with the challenges. You know, it’s not always straightforward and easy

Sagan  31:48

a

Manon Bolliger  31:48

business that is. Even if you love what you do, it’s still, you know, the business is always a challenge. People are a challenge in general, right? We’re all trying to figure out how to work, you know, together, right? You know, so

Sagan  32:05

yeah,

Manon Bolliger  32:06

yeah. There’s, yeah, that’s totally rewarding, but there’s easy, and that’s the other thing: easy is not. You know, we have this expectation that we’re on the right path if it’s easy. Oh gosh, no! I think it’s like it’s like a relationship. It doesn’t have to be easy, but it has to be moving forward. It has to be growing. It has to be, you know, bigger and bigger. It has to be accepting and understanding. It has, you know, it’s all of those things. The same as life, same as business, same as, you know. So easy is not. If it was easy, we’d be bored.

Sagan  32:56

Fair enough. Yeah. Thanks for being on this

Helena Zhu  33:00

journey with us, Manon, and thank you for your eldership and guidance, and just being there for us always, and being an inspiration, truly.

Sagan  33:10

Yeah.

Manon Bolliger  33:11

Well, it’s it’s such a pleasure to see what you guys are doing. So I’m I’m thrilled. I wouldn’t want it any other way. All right. Well, last words on you. How do people get hold of you? Actually, at this moment. Yeah, you can

Helena Zhu  33:27

find us at Earthping Star Institute, and we love working with people. We love what we do. It’s a real privilege every time we get to share it. But as we’re coming with some challenges, I’m also learning. We are gonna make sure we share. We’re gonna carve out space for ourselves and people like us and people who need this.

Sagan  33:47

Absolutely

Manon Bolliger  33:49

amazing.

Sagan  33:50

Yeah. Well. Well. Thanks very

Manon Bolliger  33:53

much.

Sagan  33:58

Okay. Okay.

Ending

Thank you for joining us at the Healers Cafe. If you haven’t already done so, please like, comment and subscribe with notifications on as I post a new podcast every Wednesday with tons of useful information and tips for natural healing that you won’t want to miss, go to DrManonBolliger.com/tips for more tips