How to Grow in Self-Awareness for a Fulfilled Life with Sandiip Panndit on The Healers Café with Manon Bolliger
In this episode of The Healers Café, Manon Bolliger (Deregistered naturopath with 30+ years of experience in health) speaks with Sandiip Panndit, Life Alchemist & Founder about bringing an element of fulfillment to society by helping individuals become inspired and connected to their life purpose.
Highlights from today’s episode include:
Sandiip Panndit That’s the feeling of knowing myself knowing my core values, knowing my life experiences, and knowing my key strengths. So, if I know these three things, then I know myself, I repeat the core values. I mean, and now when I look back in my hindsight now, I know that my core values were freedom, authenticity, and personal growth, I was always for it. Wherever I did not find even one element out of these three core values, I felt out of place
Sandiip Panndit As we have been talking from the beginning of this podcast man know that we have huge potential within us, we have spoken about self-belief, conviction, all that but you know, one needs coach, an expert who can actually look into your eye and say that you are good enough, you are having that power within you
Sandiip Panndit 34:27
I would always implore, or you know, encourage people that they should understand try to understand themselves by these three things. What are your core values? What are the life experiences that you had? What are those life experiences telling you, about you? And third, what are your key strengths? If they can decode these three things, number one, core values, what I stand for, okay? What is the intent of my life look like? Second, what are my life experiences telling me? And third, what are my key strengths, if they can decode these three things, they will understand who they are.
ABOUT SANDIIP PANNDIT
Mr. Sandiip Panndit is a Life Alchemist; Founder of Soul In Harmony – a unique Self-awareness-based Personal Transformation organization.
After working for 16 years in companies like GE, CRISIL, and IBM in their Leadership roles, he quit his corporate career to set up Soul In Harmony. The intent to start the organization goes back to his childhood days when he overcame a physical challenge with his sheer mind power. He is now using the same Self-Awareness Powered; SAP; 6-Steps Self Mastery technique for Human Awakening. Currently, Sandiip is on a mission to help 100,000 individuals create a systematic Transformation to have an inspired and fulfilling life through his Global Program – Self Mastery Code
He is an MBA and an M.S. in Psychotherapy and Counselling.
Sandiip is a globally certified Mindfulness, Emotional Intelligence, and Executive Leadership Coach by John Mattone; former coach of Steve Jobs.
Sandiip was voted – ‘The Most Innovative Life Coach of the Year’ in 2018 for his unique method. He also got featured on UK Healthradio, Ukraine TV Reality Show, and Podcast shows on Self-Discovery and Personal Transformation topics. Sandiip writes for Wellbeing magazines such as ThriveGlobal, SoulVeda, Life Positive, and Medium. He is a powerful Reiki Grandmaster, NLP Master Practitioner, and a renowned Clinical Hypnotherapist.
To date, he has touched more than 10,500 lives, conducted 90+ workshops, taught Mindfulness to 1000+ individuals, and impacted ten countries through his services.
Core purpose/passion: My Mission: To help individuals create a Self-Awareness-based Personal Transformation to have an Inspired and Fulfilling Life.
About Manon BolligerAs a recently De-Registered board-certified naturopathic physician & in practice since 1992, I’ve seen an average of 150 patients per week and have helped people ranging from rural farmers in Nova Scotia to stressed out CEOs in Toronto to tri-athletes here in Vancouver. My resolve to educate, empower and engage people to take charge of their own health is evident in my best-selling books: ‘What Patients Don’t Say if Doctors Don’t Ask: The Mindful Patient-Doctor Relationship’ and ‘A Healer in Every Household: Simple Solutions for Stress’. I also teach BowenFirst™ Therapy through Bowen College and hold transformational workshops to achieve these goals. So, when I share with you that LISTENING to Your body is a game changer in the healing process, I am speaking from expertise and direct experience”. Mission: A Healer in Every Household! For more great information to go to her weekly blog: http://bowencollege.com/blog. For tips on health & healing go to: https://www.drmanonbolliger.com/tips SOCIAL MEDIA: – Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | YouTube | Twitter | Linktr.ee
About The Healers Café:Manon’s show is the #1 show for medical practitioners and holistic healers to have heart to heart conversations about their day to day lives. Follow us on social media! https://www.facebook.com/thehealerscafe
Welcome to the Healers Café. Conversations on health and healing with Manon Bolliger. A retired and deregistered naturopathic physician with 30 plus years of experience. Here, you will discover engaging and informative conversations between experienced healers, covering all aspects of healing, the personal journey, the journey of the practitioner, and the amazing possibilities for our own body, and spirit.
Manon Bolliger 00:43
So welcome to the Healers Cafe. And today I have with me Mr. Sandiip Panndit, and it’s gonna be very interesting conversation, I’m just going to read you a little bit of his background. So, after working for 16 years in companies like GE, Krystle, and IBM, in their leadership roles, he quit his corporate career, to set up Soul in Harmony. The intent to start the organization goes back to his childhood days when he overcame a physical challenge with his sheer mind power. He is now using the same self-awareness powered, six step Self Mastery technique for human awakening. And currently, Sandiip is on a mission to help 100,000 individuals create a systematic transformation, to have an inspired and fulfilling life through his global program called self-mastery code. So, you have also background, a master’s in psychotherapy and counseling. And oh, well, the rest we can talk. I just want to welcome you to this interview. And well, I the first question I always ask is…
Sandiip Panndit 02:07
Thank you, Manon. Thank you for the show.
Manon Bolliger 02:11
Yeah, and how did it all begin for you? I mean, you mentioned childhood. But certainly, you’re in a leadership position, what made you kind of shift back to or what was the process what happened for you?
Sandiip Panndit 02:30
So, I had a very humble, and a nice childhood, I was enjoying my childhood, till the age of 10, something happened, something shifted, the world it shift. And that is when I realized that I had developed speech problems, speech issue, and I started to stammer. And at that age, people generally feel that teachers and the parents feel that it might be because of the childhood and as the child grows up, that stammering issue will be gone. But for me, I was a person from inside I used to be, I want it to be right there in front leading. And when I when that issue happened to me Manon, I actually started seeing that, you know, I am receding to the backdrop. I couldn’t take it. And that and every period in the school used to be like an agonizing period for me. It used to give me a feeling that, you know, I’m not able to be myself. And there was a time, there was a time I still remember, after the evening assembly, when I was going back home, I was back in the school bus at the window seat. The breeze was falling on my face. And I was unaware about who’s sitting beside me, what’s happening around in the bus. And that day, because I had fumbled in the class while reading. I actually…a thought crossed my mind and that was how if I’m not, I do not see these faces, who have seen me fumble today in the class. What would that be and if the floor or the bus propels up, and then the and then the road below that opens up and I just go and disappear. That shifted within me that you know that idea or that thought actually scared me. And that is when I started finding solutions within myself and I read an article immediately within a week, within a week’s time I read an article which said that you have to be on the center stage more often. You have to go on the stage to get to well, to get out of this fear of speaking and, or maybe come out of this habitual way of…
speaking rather. And that is when I decided, you know, it was like a hen and egg story for me Manon, which came first Do I go there and get well? Or do I get well and then go there, but I, I took up the you know, option of, you know, challenging myself going beyond my comfort zone and at the age of 10 when nobody is there who can even understand you, when you are not even understanding what is happening to you. It was too much for me and, but I took up the center stage, I started being in the electrician, poem recitation, literally club, sports field, I started channelizing my energy in all the ways where I actually started being in the moment. And what also happened along with that is that when I used to participate, give my name to this, you know, contests, I used to do myself up, no, 40 days, 30 days in advance, I used to do actually, now I know the names, visualization manifestation, all these things I started doing to myself without any reading, without any, you know, without any coaching support, nobody taught me this. And I used to psych myself up for that moment, it used to pass, I used to get the word, because I had visualized that, and I used to get that word, but the problem used to be, as I got down from the stage, the same thing started. I mean, the same usual life, because I have tuned myself only for the moment. But the muscle exercise, the meditation, the breathing exercises that I used to do, that continued for eight years, and fast forward eight years, as I stepped out of my home for my higher education. And when I came back, my parents saw, do you have changed, I said, what has changed? Then they said, you know that we don’t see that speech problem anymore. I said, oh, yeah. So, what happened was, when I wanted to go out of my comfort zone Manon, I actually challenged myself and took up some decisions, where I used my subconscious mind power, visualization, manifestation, then breathing techniques, and that helped me control my emotions. And that actually, in the long run in eight years’ time, I was completely out of it. And today, so that is to answer your first question, this is what shifted that, you know, I cannot be like this. I need to do something. And you know, as I have seen some of your videos, podcasts, where you are saying, you know, we have huge, immense potential with the hustles. But we need to first realize that, and then and then harness that.
Manon Bolliger 08:02
Yeah, yeah. And I think, I mean, it’s, I look at it as courageous. But it, I think it’s the only way forward is to actually not start with the idea that you’re broken, and you’ve got to get fixed. Because nobody ever accomplishes that. It’s like you go in circles and circles, you’ve got to go forward, you know, and deal with it. And then you know, I think at least visualization and all the tools you’re mentioning make big sense, but I think emotionally, it’s like I am, I’m not broken, you know, that’s what you’re really saying. I can do it to the degrees that I can and, you know, yeah, that’s very, very interesting method. One of the things I don’t know if, if that’s your experience or not, but I have like a lot of practitioners that I’ve trained, and fear of speaking is huge. And many of the habits, the nervous tics, sometimes the stammering the forgetfulness, all of this comes because of the stage fright. And I’ve said this, and I don’t think that’s your case had 10 years old, but if you connect to what it is you’re doing, what you want, why you’re sharing what you’re sharing, to the others, you know, the cause why it’s important, and you take the emphasis off yourself, then it’s so much easier. Because if your focus just on you then it’s like all you do is you know have your negative self-speak about how you’re not good enough, not ready enough not perfect enough on all the stuff that the subconscious mind will do. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Sandiip Panndit 08:45
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely no, this realization has came to me as I stepped into this field of life coaching. Back then, this was not the concept which was put in front of me because I was very small child at that time. So, people are learning at that stage, and you are neither for yourself nor for others, you are just learning, and you are, you know, going to school. But as I queue up, and as I wanted to do something, you touched upon two topics here Manon. One is about, if you know your if you have a purpose, if you know your why. And second, you touched upon, is about…one is about why, and another use said about…
Manon Bolliger 10:57
Sandiip Panndit 10:58
If you’re talking to focus is thinking the focus is on the other person, you know, both is so important, because I have now realized that as long as you feel that it is you who is doing it. Now, this is the third element, I would like to put forward. Now I think things are happening through me, I’m just the instrument, I’m just a medium, and when…so this is the third element that I would like to bring, but this third element is also touching upon the others aspect, you know, because it is for the other person. And at first, it is, you know, you are meant to do this. That’s the feeling of knowing myself knowing my core values, knowing my life experiences, and knowing my key strengths. So, if I know these three things, then I know myself, I repeat the core values. I mean, and now when I look back in my hindsight now, I know that my core values were freedom, authenticity, and personal growth, I was always for it. Wherever I did not find even one element out of these three core values, I felt out of place. So, I started knowing myself then, when I knew myself, the second aspect that you said about when I thought that when I have healed myself, now it is time for me to help others tap into that space. When that became the idea, the central idea of my life. You know, quitting corporate career was not a big deal for me. People often asked me, Sandiip, how did you do it after 16 years of, of working with reputed organizations and good roles, leadership roles? How did you decide? I said, it didn’t happen in one day, but when I understood myself, and when I also understood that I need to put my self-knowledge and my acquired knowledge into practice for others, that is your second thing that we’re talking about the you know, applying it others, then the entire attention shifted on the other person and believe me Manon, my speaking and my communication, articulation has always become better when I have shifted that focus on to the other person on to the other side of me. So, I 100% agree with that.
Manon Bolliger 13:37
So, which actually brings me another question, because this is the first time, I hear such a story of at 10 years old deciding to go forward, right? What do you think was at play for you at 10? What were the…what was going through you what allowed you to make such a huge shift?
Sandiip Panndit 14:10
I look back now, and I also try to answer that question for myself. The one word that I get for this, I actually had self-belief always, that has never ever left me. It was always right. And maybe it is also because everybody has that self-belief at the core. Maybe I was able to get to that core of mine. And you know, and touch that and feel that.
Manon Bolliger 14:43
Sandiip Panndit 14:43
As you said the beginning that we all are, as I you know, as I recollected about your podcast that you also say that we all are very powerful beings, which we are but very few of us are able to touch and feel that maybe I was able to touch and feel that. And that self-belief was very No, it was not abstract for me. Maybe I tapped that.
Manon Bolliger 15:12
Yeah. I would imagine, I, you know, I can’t see how else you would have the ability to just make that decision. You know, I think it makes sense. And, you know, if you look at it, that there are no coincidences, and that in any case, you’re a vesicle for the information you’re about to share. Then one could also say that you are guided, and you listened, you know, which makes sense.
Sandiip Panndit 15:43
And that, that brings me to another point, which I’ll talk about little later. You know, it also brought in a lot of intuition into my life.
Manon Bolliger 15:52
Sandiip Panndit 15:52
Yeah. And that I’m using it my therapies, which I’ll share.
Manon Bolliger 15:57
So why don’t we talk a little bit about, you know, your, your therapies, your program? Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Sandiip Panndit 16:06
Okay, so it all started with this, you know, how I healed myself. And then I also started…it is very strange, very strange story. But you know, strange stories are the real stories. What happened was, when I, when I started working on myself, doing my meditations early in my childhood, I actually started feeling that I have that intuitive power, or maybe I have developed it or it was there, I just found it. And a lot of synchronicities have happened. serendipities have happened in my life. I was studying in one of the topmost universities, Banaras Hindu University, it is the top 12 Central universities of India. And it is, and I was sitting just beside the river Ganges. And we used to stroll down from our campus to that place every evening, one day, there was a bookstore, and I just figured I just got pulled towards a palmistry book. Palmistry. Okay. And I picked up that book. And because I was in the hospital, there were a lot of hands, which I could have seen. And, you know, within a month’s time, I actually read lots of illustrations and hands, and I actually use my intuition. And, I learned palmistry. And the advantage was that all those people whose palms I was reading, they were around me. So, I could actually validate what I have seen what I read, and how they are. And I used to validate my research, and that, you know, in the background that kept running, so my intuitive power developed during my college days. And after that, I did my MBA, after MBA, the rat race began. I ran the race for 10 years. And then I forgot meditation, and all these, you know, things that I was doing, completely got out of it. And believe me, when I was doing my MBA, and the time when it hit me, Sandiip what are we doing, are you really happy? It was a dream job that I was in when I was doing my MBA, I thought this is the kind of job I want.
Commercial Break 18:30
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Sandiip Panndit 19:09
And the irony is that when I was exactly in a job like that in IBM, I had just you know, it was a multicultural environment. I was training, I was an IT, no marketing training, marketing strategy. profile. And when I came back from Latin American tour, after training my colleagues, I actually asked myself, Sandiip, Are you really happy? And to that I get got an answer. Sandiip you are not really happy. I’m not happy. And that is a time when I started developing the sense that you know, I need to go back to meditation. And so, meditation happened. And then the life coaching aspect began when I actually started guiding my colleagues around with intuition. And then I learned, I learned a lot of intuitive tools or maybe I tapped into my intuitive sense and then I started using…I started saying that Intuitive Life Coaching is something where I blend Tarot reading, face reading, palm reading, aura reading, pendulum 1000 and numerology. So, this is where I started off. Nobody I know of use all these tools in a single session of one hour, to understand your energy and then guide you. There are life coaches who guide you based on the concepts of life coaching, empathy, compassion, and punctuality and self-belief and all that, but I understood the energy and then move them towards in that direction where they are meant to be. So, I say that I move you from where you are, to where you are meant to be, not where you want to be. So that was my first, I would say, service that I launched. But from there, I moved on Manon, and I saw that, you know, I need to impact many people in one go. And that is when I learned Reiki healing. I learned clinical hypnotherapy. That’s what I do, and NLP. And then I also got globally certified for mindfulness and emotional intelligence and executive leadership coaching. So, as you see, different forms of coaching or different forms of self-development, I’ve actually imbibed embraced and give my essence to it. And then I actually help people master themselves and that is where the birth of my latest program Self Mastery Code happened, which is a six steps Self Mastery framework, which moves the person from self-awareness to unlock and unleash yourself match it. As we have been talking from the beginning of this podcast man know that we have huge potential within us, we have spoken about self-belief, conviction, all that but you know, one needs coach, an expert who can actually look into your eye and say that you are good enough, you are having that power within you. And everywhere in all cultures, it has been told, isn’t it that we have the power in various ways it has been taught. From centuries and to answer your question, mindfulness, meditation, Reiki, hypnotherapy, NLP, intuitive, life coaching is something that is very sacred to me. I do not offer it always, I offer it only who need it. Otherwise, I’m more into mindfulness, self-mastery, self-leadership. Yeah, we’re I move people from self-awareness to unlock and unleash yourself. Be the reality. So, in your course you have, is it six weeks? Do you have…like a, I’m sure it’s individualized because how could it not be on some level? But is there? Are there steps that you would be able to share quickly? Because I know we don’t have lots of time, but are there steps that you can see that help people in towards that? I can tell you the steps. So, it is six step not the six week. So, the first step is self-awareness Manon. Okay, I believe for me also, when I was doing everything else, everything else but not self-awareness. I was actually a little bit scattered in my life. When I brought in the self-awareness, I saw that actually brought in all the islands of learning together, and actually became the person that I was meant to be. So that’s the first step self-awareness. Step number two is forgiveness. Forgive yourself and forgive others. So, when we are actually there are a lot of conditionings there a lot of things debris, of emotions, from this life from past life, from our childhood, from school days, and a lot of things. So, number one, self-awareness number two, forgive yourself and forgive others. Number three is create a massive self-image. Remove the negative conditioning because the self-image comes in our way. So, clearing the negative self-image is number three. Number four is create a massive life vision. Only when we remove the negative conditioning, we remove the dust from the mirror, are we able to see the real me. Real eyes in the mirror. So, number four is create a massive life vision. And number five are practices. practices are sacred, because I cannot give you a framework where there is no self-work. So, all the practices light in this fifth stage, mindfulness, meditation, forgiveness, all that, you know, fall into the practices. And the last is unlock and unleash where you’re actually living up to your potential and you’re giving it your best. And you’re, you know, you’re not looking back. So, these are the 6 steps.
Manon Bolliger 25:53
Okay, I have a question for you on that. So, when you say, and forgive me if I got the numbers wrong, but it’s I believe the third or the it’s the step that where you say, take off the dust before you create. So, the negatives…
Sandiip Panndit 26:12
Step number three, yeah.
Manon Bolliger 26:14
Yeah. Before you then create the…
Sandiip Panndit 26:18
Manon Bolliger 26:19
The life vision based on now, I think that your new vision of yourself, basically, your, your authentic self, or whatever you want to call it. But in step three, and this is just because I do similar work, you know, in group coaching, and that and I’m just curious. Have you found that, then it’s like, we have a conscious mind that knows the chatter and the chatter is unconscious? It’s true, it repeats itself many times, or it’s found in the body. But I find that when I try something different, or something new, where I’ve seen this in my clients, that’s when their real stuff comes out. It’s not if they just stay and analyze themselves is when they’re actually focused on the end result where they’re already focused on what they want to do or create. That’s when all those number three things really come out. So, I’ve inversed my program, almost the other way, it’s really focused on what people want, and desire. Because I have found, and I’m just curious, I mean, I know there’s a million ways in the world.
Sandiip Panndit 27:49
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have understood your question. And I will address that I am agreeing with what you’re saying. And I have created a way how can have that in the stage one the self-awareness?
Manon Bolliger 28:06
I see. So yes, where you create.
Sandiip Panndit 28:08
I’m calling it self awareness. Yes. I’m calling it intentionality. I’m calling it know your real self in the self-awareness stage in the step one itself.
Manon Bolliger 28:18
Very good. Okay.
Sandiip Panndit 28:20
There’s an exercise, there is an exercise. Beautiful. I mean, good. You pointed this out, because otherwise, there is no, there is no reason I, what do I need to get rid of If I don’t know what to get rid of?
Manon Bolliger 28:32
Well, exactly. And yeah, exactly. And there’s no, there’s no reason for it unless it manifests, right, because you…it’s an endless thing. And that’s what I found beautiful in your childhood story as well. You just went forward.
Sandiip Panndit 28:48
Manon Bolliger 28:49
You know, it’s not like you, you went to speech therapists and counselors for confidence and a million things you just move forward, right? And in a sense, it’s because something in you had a vision to go forward right. So, it’s almost like that. The program now step one, is the foundation of this whole structure.
Sandiip Panndit 29:15
Why do you want it? What do you want? Who are you? I start with who are you?
Manon Bolliger 29:21
Yeah. Anyway, fascinating. Yeah, it’s such an incredible world of possibilities that can you imagine the need for these companies that you worked for before, for having this type of work available to them?
Sandiip Panndit 29:43
Oh, my God. Yes. I really, I really feel no not now I am on the other side of the table Manon. And I really yesterday I was having a discussion with one of my I would say collaborate friend, we got in touch. And he’s also trying to create a transformative program. And we got in touch through some of the common program that we attended, and we kind of resonated. And we both are on the same path of trying to create something for corporations where people are struggling. And believe me, Manon, I have I have had situations in my mentorship programs. I also do mentorship programs for mid-career professionals and top professionals who are who wants to take a leap of faith from where they are to doing something great in their mid-career. And they have given me phrases like Sandiip, there are prisoners of life inside the corporation’s prisoners of life, and what you’re doing to me, I mean, I’m just speaking in direct speech, what you doing to me, there are so many out there who need this. And they are giving me the details of their learning, development, head of learning, development, and they’re saying, please, come and talk to them and have your programs is into the organizations. There are many people who need it, because I personalize the therapies. Do I have a framework, six steps framework, but I personalize each and every case, if there are people who need deep interventions, like I do mentorship programs, actually take them through a very personalized manner in the same framework? Somebody might need mindfulness, somebody else might need meditation, somebody else might need sound therapy, or maybe Reiki healing, or maybe subconscious mind power or, or a guided practice where I can guide them on their chosen journey that they have chosen for themselves. So, believe, you know, I agree with you, your question is very clear that what could it be if this was available to them? But you know, there is another side to it. Corporations today, also don’t want very heavy stuff, and very deep interventions. So, I’m aware about that. And as long as it as it serves their attrition issue, productivity, issue, focus attention, and getting, you know, employees being engaged at work. Okay, from that point of view, we have curated programs of self-leadership, Manon, right. Okay, we are calling that self-leadership there. So, as I’m writing a book, also on this self-leadership, which is also drawn from the same framework of self-mastery, but little, we are innovating on that. And we’re bringing in a lot of real life illustrations in that how people have done it, how the hero’s journey has evolved. But yes, in corporations, definitely, surely no doubt, this will…this will be impactful. And I’ve started doing keynotes on self-mastery of leadership, and it is slowly catching up and I could see there is that there is a need. Only thing is we need to play consciously there cannot take the employees on a different journey where…
Manon Bolliger 33:28
Half the people want to quit.
Sandiip Panndit 33:31
Manon Bolliger 33:35
But you know, the thing too, is sometimes just becoming aware, allows you to do what you’re doing, and just be present to it. It’s the choice that you have made, you know, on some level until you change it. But you know, just not fighting or not resisting that choice you’ve made. You know, as Byron Katie says, you know, just what does she say, forget to get so long ago, I took her training. But if fighting against reality doesn’t work, you know, it’s just like, you may as well embrace it, if this is your reality, go with it, you know, and I think that that helps. Anyway, we are we’re done our time, any last word you want to say or just before we disconnect?
Sandiip Panndit 34:27
Yeah. I would always implore, or you know, encourage people that they should understand try to understand themselves by these three things. What are your core values? What are the life experiences that you had? What are those life experiences telling you, about you? And third, what are your key strengths? If they can decode these three things, number one, core values, what I stand for, okay? What is the intent of my life look like? Second, what are my life experiences telling me? And third, what are my key strengths, if they can decode these three things, they will understand who they are. And once they understand who they are, they will be inspired, instead of motivated. I don’t believe in motivation, I believe in inspiration when they connect. Once they connect with themselves, they can love themselves, they will self-care, they will self-love, they will get to that point where they have that self-belief installed embedded already. They do not have to do anything new. And then they can be the real, unique, powerful selves that they already are. So, my last word is get to know yourself.
Manon Bolliger 35:58
Yeah perfect. Well, Sandiip, thank you so much for sharing your experience and wisdom. It’s been a pleasure.
Sandiip Panndit 36:06
Thank you. Thank you for having me on the show, Manon. And I look forward to collaborating with you interviews with you we need to do more.
Manon Bolliger 36:14
Sandiip Panndit 36:17
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